hoosier_girl

I'd like to take my 55 year old healthy mother and 18 year old bookish daughter on a 2 week tour of england, scotland and ireland. I 'm thinking a small tour, plenty of free time to shop, eat alone, etc. We don't want to be in generic hotels, would prefer country houses, estates, etc. Would like to see some of the most obvious stuff, but mostly interested in architecture, good food, shopping vs. tours of china factories, etc. We can go sometime September-October 2006. Budget $3000 per person inc. airfare. Any suggestions?

P_M

Hello, Hoosier girl. Two weeks isn't a lot of time to cover England, Scotland and Ireland. A tour of all 3 of these places would be very rushed. Have you considered going on your own, and perhaps scaling back a bit? You could easily fill 2 weeks in any 2 of these countries, then save the other for your next trip.

Dijon123

try London, Belfast, Edinburgh, London.
easyjet.com should manage the flights cheaply. Do the usual London things, hire a car in Belfast & visit the Antrim Coast (Giants Causeway) and take the Enterprise train from Belfast to Dublin for a daytrip. Wander Edinburgh & then fly back to London to finish off.
Otherwise choose one country & go for it, 2 weeks is not enough to remotely enjoy any of the 3 if you try them all.

janisj

for that budget you will pretty much have to do it on your own. Small group $3000 tours, airfare included, won't get you into country house hotels.

Unless you go on a rushed coach tour you won't have time for three countries. And it would be VERY rushed w/ lots of long hours on a coach w/o stopping.

But, don't worry, it will be cheaper and very easy to do it on your own. What part(s) of England do you want to see?

You could do 5 or 6 days in London and a week+ in Scotland. Or London, fly to Cork and do a week+ in SW Ireland. Or London and a week+ in York and the Cotswolds. Those sorts of itineraries are doable in 2 weeks.

rex

Sounds like the perfect nucleus oa Fodorites' trip to me. And I disagree that it is... or has to be... rushed, in the slightest. Rushing is what a person chooses... or chooses to avoid.

How many is too many people to qualify as a small group trip, in your mind? 6? 8? I'd be glad to discuss it with you further.

Best wishes,

Rex Bickers
Floyds Knobs, Indiana

rex

topping... (shamelessly)...

Bluehour

I really don't think you need a tour. Your tastes seem pretty developed. In fact, I don't think you'd find a tour that met your needs and wasn't ridiculously priced. After all, someone in a business needs to make their portion above the price it costs to them. They'd argue they get "special deals", but they're almost always with chains, and you can get discounts on your own by asking, and stay at the hotel YOU want to stay at, visit the potteries YOU want to visit, and stay as long as you think they're worth, without pressure to buy or race back to the bus.
I think a 3-generation trip is too precious for you to be herded. Part of the point is for you to be together -- it might be fun to make your itinerary, have each family member pick a couple of places, then share what they think is special and conduct their own tour.

It sounds like you have all the elements nailed down of what you'd like. I'd start googling, break out the guide books. Use child labor: have your daughter do some of the research. There's SO MUCH information available online -- reviews, pictures, menus, bus schedules. Check the archives at travel or other magazines you like for specialized itineraries like a pottery tour, or best restaurants in Dublin (Fodors has lots of "If you have 1 day/3 days/5 days in Scotland -- there are your major sights right there). You can also just google random stuff like "antiques markets Manchester" or "art deco buildings London" whatever -- somebody out there always has a blog with recommendations.

Analyze the things you would want a tour to do, and see if there isn't a way you could do it yourself, or less intrusively. You can, for example, take day tours: get on a bus and knock off all the attractions in Dublin, say bye-bye to the bus and whiny family, and spend the next 2 days doing your own thing. (Buses make me sleepy. Then when I get off, I'm not in the mood to see anything.) If you don't like driving on the left, use public transportation, and maybe hire a taxi or car and driver for a few hours here and there to take you somewhere it's hard to get to.

It's a beautiful time of year to go. Whatever you decide, you'll have a great time together. Take TONS of pictures!

rex

Just a clarification, in case you (or anyone else) should decide that you are interested in this being a "Fodorites' trip" - - unlike, the assertion made (correctly) by Bluehour... I am NOT "someone in a business [who] needs to make their portion above the price it costs to them..."

I... and anyone on the trip would pay exactly the same as the three of you. It would be about (newly made) friends pooling interests, resources - - and in some case(s), sharing cool alternative accommodations that are anything but "generic hotels".

hoosier_girl

Wow, thanks for all the helpful suggestions. My thoughts on why a small tour are desirable are: 5 years ago I went with my mom and sister and I still have nightmares recalling my sister and I trying to manage our small but carefully planned bags AND our mothers haul of ever-growing-souveneirs. (including, I kid you not, large framed art prints) By day 11 in Paris we couldn't have cared less that we were on a romantic evening trip down the Seine or lunching in the Marais...we wanted just to be unemcumbered. We don't want the hassle of driving or being responsible for dragging our luggage up and down staircases in rail stations, etc. I would do it on my own in a minute if I were going with a friend or my husband, but this situation is a bit different. I guess a small tour would be no more than 10. I'm wondering if planning the trip and then just hiring a driver would be the better bet? I don't expect to thoroughly explore each country; just a nice sampling. We're also not big on too much time in the bigger venues. I'd rather have 3 days in Bath over London any day. Any new thoughts?

rex

My interest in trying to assemble this as a Fodorites' trip is serious; I will be happy to be the driver and it doesn't mean "hiring" me or paying me for anything.

I'll be very interested to see if anyone else has an interest.

Bluehour

I see your trouble.

My personality quirks mean I'm never going to be happy on any kind of tour (and no tour would be happy with me on it, to be fair!)-- so take that into consideration when weighing my advice. But I really think, of those are your two concerns, that you can get what you need, and better, without a tour. It seems like you're so close to having this all figured out, a few problem-solvers should take you the rest of the way. If you didn't, I would not have offered advice.

As I said before, it's probably not hard to find a tour that will take you to the biggest potteries (Wedgewood, Portmerion, Spode or whatever), but I think it would be a shame to miss Whichford, Emma Bridgewater etc, which do some real handmade one of a kind stuff. And those big shopping tours often get a percentage of sales etc. so there's some pressure (if only self-inflicted) to buy, and not a lot of down time. And one that would include the kind of hotels you'd want would probably be more than your budget. Again, googling may prove me wrong.

I'm sure this board or other sites would have recommendations for drivers and let you know what it would cost so you can decide if that's a good option for you. If you're zipping from Ireland to Scotland to England, you'd want to hop a plane at some point. You may well be able to design an itinerary with days in smaller cities and a few days or parts of days with a car and driver.

One solution, no matter what you decide, might be to ship a box of stuff stuff back home every few days. You can buy boxes (or ask the grocer), bubble wrap, tape, string, labels etc. in even the tiniest village, wrap everything up and mail it home. This can even include dirty/unsuitable/ overpacked clothing, books etc. to lighten your load. It's a nice errand to do when somebody needs a time out (and EVERYONE needs a time out occasionally on a trip like this).

As long as you do what you do for a reason, you pretty much can't go wrong. Happy planning!

hoosier_girl

Ok, I'm exposing my ignorance... Explain a "Fodorite" trip. I think I get the gist, but amplification would be great. How do you determine if it's a good mix? And does anyone have suggestions for drivers to hire if we go that route? Or has anyone compared the cost between the two, driver vs. loose tour? I guess I'd love to not have to do a tour, I'm very independent. For instance, I don't want to go to any potteries at all. But I'd love to see country houses, flea markets and good pubs. It will be my third trip to England and Scotland, and I'd like to see Cornwall and maybe the Lake district this time. And more time in the Cotswolds.

janisj

Don't worry about the "fodorite tour" - that's just Rex being Rex. He often volunteers to put groups together.

As for your "wish List" -- two weeks is not very long for Cornwall, the Cotswolds, the potteries, Lake District and Scotland (not to mention Ireland from your first post).

You could do it independently - it would be a lot cheaper to rent a car and stay in B&Bs than to pay for three on a tour. And driving makes hassling w/ all of Mom's purchases easier. Just lock them in the trunk and forget about them until you have to pack up to leave.

BTW - your mom is only 55 - a lot younger than many of the posters on here. I say if she buys it she carries it.

But you would certainly have to drop Ireland to have a chance to see most of your other "musts".

You could fly into Edinburgh or Glasgow and the after a few days in Scotland start touring your way down the country -- Lake district, Derbyshire for the potteries and Peak District, the Cotswolds, then through Bath and the SW to Devon/Cornwall. Then back up to LHR or LGW to fly home. This would be a doable but fairly rushed two weeks.

rex

When it is said that I "often" volunteer to assemble a Fodorites' trip, that would be accurate if "often" means two-four times a year. I volunteer "often", but the trips happen rarely.

I have led or assembled, in one capacity or another, about a dozen small group trips since 1998 (almost always family, friends, or friends of family) ... one and only one of those has been a "Fodorites' trip" (to Italy, Sep 19-30, 2001). I know of only two other Fodorites trips during the same time frame, and they were a "group of two" in both instances.

So it's a concept that is loosely defined at best, but all the more reason that it can/should be whatever its participants want it to be. In this case, it might be as small as 4 or 5 (you three, me and maybe someone who comes with me) - - we'll call that the "nucleus" or as large as it might suit all of the other individuals in the nucleus (16 is the largest I have ever planned and led; I favor 10 or fewer). Everyone pay the same; no one gets a free or subsidized trip off the others' participation.

It barely fits the definition of a tour - - but it does share these characterstics: a group of people who fly to Europe meeting up more or less upon arrival, staying in the same lodging choices, traveling at the same time by the same mode (van, train or air, as needed) from one base destination to another; often engaging in shared day or evning activities and the majority of meals. One person, with the requisite experience (such as myself) plays the role of leader - - primarily in intra-Europe transportation, confirming lodging arrangements, and in many cases (though doesn't entirely have to be) will serve as purchaser and "bank" for the shared expenses.

I am seriously willing, and interested in joining with you to cultivate such a possibility to the British Isles in September-October. A face-to-face meeting (or extended telephone conversation).

You can get a little greater sense of how the 2001 trip came together at www.rexbickers.italy.com but I have moved ("back home&quot to southern Indiana since I posted that.

The e-mail address, as you see it here, is still one of the best ways to reach me, if you should choose to want to do so.

If you want to learn more about me before doing that, there are over 10,000 posts I have contributed here over the past 7 years.

Here are some of the newer ones:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgTopic...md&start=0

...and here are some of the older ones:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgTopic...mp;start=10000

I look forward to further communication with you, on this, if and when it should appeal to you to learn more.

hoosier_girl

Sorry it takes so long for me to get back on here, I've been working a lot. Rex, may I assume you're male? Single? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable doing a 2 week tour with a an unmarried male. I'm having a hard time picturing what that looks like; my mother, daughter, myself...and you? Maybe some other women or even a couple. ( I'm probably revealing my puritanical leanings) However, thank you so much for all of your input.
Ok, I'm leaning toward the notion of doing it ourselves, but none of us wants to or is comfortable with driving. So, we band up with a few others who don't mind driving, or hire drivers. Is the driver thing practical and/or affordable? By the way, my mom is apparently 57 and I should say I only mentioned her age to give a picture of the multigenerational aspect, and to point out that we didn't have any physical limitations. (my mother is quite a gardener and has biceps that put mine to shame )

rex

I am married, and chances are, that my wife would be (one of the) other person(s) accompanying (nearly mandatory if the group exceeds 7 or 8 people - - two drivers required, and realistically, there ought to be a backup plan for at least one other driver, in any scenario, one vehicle or two - - unless you want an all train plan, which I would not recommend). As mentioned above, there is considerably more info about me, and the concept of a "Fodorites' trip" on www.rexbickers.italy.com (this was an early draft for the trip of September 2001, to Italy); there is at least one photo from our trip on http://fodorite.fisherfowler.net - - see http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34671527 to understand this webpage of Fodorite photos in context.

I understand your skepticism - - total strangers involved in your daughter-mother-grandmother trip. But is a serious offer - - you originally inquired about a "tour" - - and of course, you would be "assembled" into a group with strangers on any commercial trip.

This offers you the advantages of a group trip, but customized to exactly your destinations and interests. there is no catch; there are no hidden strings. I/we simply am/are much in favor of small group travel, for the advantages it offers, the change of pace possible from traveling by ourselves.

hoosier_girl

Ok, Rex, I feel better. I'm looking up your info right now, and am intrigued by the idea. I'll get back on line tomorrow.

rex

topping... in case this strikes a chord of interest with anyone else...

hoosier_girl

I'm open to the idea of putting a group together, bit a little leery of too much togetherness. I want this to be a special trip for my daughter, it's really to celebrate her graduating. I don't want to be constrained to sharing all of our mealtimes, etc. Is it possible to do this and allow for a lot of freedom? Like, we're here at this place in Bath till day after tomorrow, everyone is on their own if they want(or not) til we head down to Cornwall...What do you think?

rex

Yes, of course. In fact, the main guiding principle is that there are no molds to fit in, no rules to follow, except for those you make up as you go along.

For the Italy trip (and many other group trips that I have arranged), a centerpiece was an extended stay (typically a week, but doesn't have to be) at a self-catering house or villa. But that might not fit your ideas at all.

And even at the Lake Garda villa, six of the seven wanted to overnight in Venice - - and I elected not to, for exactly that reason - - for a planned "break from each other". I drove them to Venice, got them settled in their hotel, and then took off to see La Rotonda (in Vicenza) on my own. Returned to the villa and picked them all up the next afternoon (I actually went there in the morning, and enjoyed some Venice time by myself, before meeting back up with them).

The main constraint that I can see is that you (evidently) want transport (within England, within Scotland, etc), but don't want to do the driving. So the separations would have to planned to fit your needs to get around, if apart from me - - and whoever else is "with the car" (or van) for the "segregated" night... or nights.

As you've already pictured (it seems), there is no "economy of scale" in meals together (except meals "fixed in&quot, nor museums, shopping, etc. Lodging CAN be worth combining (staying in the same place, not staying "together&quot - - in the sense of economy of time (though not cost, typically). In fact, the main savings IS the travel by car or van.

And I think that the cameraderie DOES count for something, if only an hour, here, an hour there - - to recap and share info on separate things done.

However you envision it, I can hardly think of a commercial "small group trip" that can give you the freedom and design-it-yourself... of... startig with no preconceptions, and cobbling it together.