Capo

To: "xxx", you should <I>definitely</I> have a say on how intimate you would be willing to go. That wasn't my point (or, rather, question) however. I'd just been curious what you meant by the use of the word "safe" and, to my recollection, you never explained. <BR> <BR>There's nothing wrong with flirting. It's just that, from my perspective as a man, I think a lot of men would -- again, assuming they were attracted to a woman -- naturally be interested in a bit (or a lot) more. (And, of course, some women would be too.)

Susan

I'm curious ... how did most of the people in this thread meet their spouses? Perhaps some of you met in a bar, or restaurant, or on vacation, or in a grocery store? Are single people supposed to stay home and hope someone comes knocking on their door? Life is too short, my friends. No more name calling, please. I mean, we all clicked on the subject heading, didn't we?

Susan

And with regard to our friend, David, I will reference a previous thread about Seinfeld and suggest he had just gotten out of the water.

nancy

Holly, <BR>Have you written a Trip Report yet? <BR>and will you mail me a copy ASAP? <BR> <BR>Going back to Italy next spring, and <BR>I need to bone up (sorry about that one!) ahead of time

woman

It's not women who pass judgements, it's most ofter that same men you flirt with. To me, you are entitled to live a life of your own. <BR>But when you come to bar and start flirting THEY already expect you to go all the way, and if you refuse, beware... Their tongs are longer than...

Escritora

Precisely so. A man calls a woman a slut when he knows she enjoys sex and learns she does not choose to enjoy it with him!

Brain Trust

Sometimes such a man would choose to call her a lesbian, like if she doesn't want to have sex with him, she couldn't possibly want any other man...WRONG!

Rosenatti

Escritora, that was the perfect post. <BR> <BR>What really amazes me is women who continue to date/sleep with men who label their female lovers "sluts." The self-hatred is astounding.

clairobscur

Well...I beg to differ with some other posters. I've no problem with having lenghty discussion, having fun, having a drink, whatever with some woman I happen to meet.... <BR> <BR>But I can't get why a woman would be flirting just for the sake of it. Yes, if a woman I don't really know (as opposed to a friend, since we both know what to expect or not to expect) begin flirting with me, I assume she interested in me. <BR> <BR>If it turns up she isn't, I wonder what's wrong with her and why she began to act in this way in the first place.

Brain Trust

I think we might get into a discussion here in which someone defines flirting. <BR> <BR>Dancing with, talking to, drinking with, complimenting......?

Laurie

<BR>If a woman flirts with you she is interested in you, not sex. <BR> <BR>I have to disagree with those who state that Americans are more sexually open as far as movies, billboards, etc. I find the Euopeans to be much more open. The last time in Paris I went out with a guy who stated that threesomes were somewhat common there, while in the States I would say 95% have never experienced this. Comments?

Barb

<BR>Traveler <BR>You are mistaken, foreigners go for American women for two reasons. They know we are not as free with sex as the European so they find it a challenge, you know, "having" an American woman is an accomplishment. And they often say that American men can't satisfy a woman so they love proving they can.

Capo

To: woman, Re: "It's not women who pass judgements, it's most ofter that same men you flirt with." <BR> <BR>While men do call women sluts, it's absolutely untrue that women do not also use this epithet to apply to other women. <BR> <BR>Escritora, Re: "Precisely so. A man calls a woman a slut when he knows she enjoys sex and learns she does not choose to enjoy it with him!" <BR> <BR>While I'd certaintly agree with that -- that some men indeed put down women, in that fashion, who reject them -- as I just noted above, women also use the term to apply to other women. Furthermore, epithets like slut (or harlot, etc.) may also be used by a man who has no intention of sleeping with a woman, but feels that what she chooses to do is morally "wrong." <BR> <BR>Clairobscur, Re: "But I can't get why a woman be flirting just for the sake of it." <BR> <BR>IMO, flirting is an art which may, <I>or may not</I>, be intended to lead to anything else. How about people who are married, for example? Should they never flirt with anyone just for the sake of it? Do you see that kind of flirting as leading someone on? <BR> <BR>Laurie, Re: "If a woman flirts with you she is interested in you, not sex." <BR> <BR>How can you make a blanket (no pun intended!) assertion like that? Some women are, and some women aren't. <BR> <BR>Anyway, I agree with you that Europeans are, in general, much more open about sex (and nudity too.)

Surlok

I agree with you, Capo, exception made to the flirting thing. Since flirting is subtle, and so are its the verbal and non verbal signs, whereas one woman might be only enjoying the flirt by itself, because it's funny, because it flatters her, or just for the sake of doing it, or killing time, most men DO take it as something that surely leads to sex, or at least Latin men do, as Clairobscur says. It gets even more complicated if the flirt happens between a man and a woman with different cultural backgrounds and communication codes. So, imagine an American woman openly talking, laughing, and having fun in the company of an Italian man. How will he read/decode her signs, or communication codes? This is far more complicated than it apparently seems...

clairobscur

Laurie : If a woman is interested in me and nothing more, she should be talking with me, not flirting with me. <BR> <BR>Concerning the threesome thing, I'm quite sure that 95% of people in France never did that, either.

Holly

Amazing (truly amazing) that my original post regarding men hitting on me and my friends in bars, has turned into a discussion on whether women should flirt with men if they don't want sex. So many people with such closed minds have actually taken the fact that I said that having sex with someone as a single woman on vacation is fine and turned it into a discussion about agressive women is warped (and the people who call a single woman who has sex a slut or whore are so beyond helping that it need not be discussed...go get a life people, or if you can't, masturbate...it feels good). My friends were not flirting, not looking to meet men, not paying attention to anyone but each other. Men , however, took it upon themselves to send over drinks, sit down and talk, etc. And while it was clear what they were after, we enjoyed the company, the talks with men from another part of the world, etc. Whether or not these encounters led to sex is unimportant, but it is NOT about women who flirt...it's about Italian men flocking to american women. It's a great thing, not a bad thing.

xxx

Holly, Your youth and inexperience is showing. How is "men sending drinks, sitting down to talk..." any different in Italy than in the US. And if this wasn't about wanting to meet men, why did you title the thread "sex in italy"? But this and other posts of yours indicate that for all your purported open mindedness, you have a pretty closed mind and only exerience will show you that there is a huge spectrum of valid opinions in the world. And by the way, just because you initiate a thread you don't own it. These things develop a life of their own.

Surlok

"...but it is NOT about women who flirt...it's about Italian men flocking to american women. It's a great thing, not a bad thing." <BR> <BR>I agree, Holly. Being a woman myself, I think is flattering, also because Italian men, regardless being as "gifted" as David or not, are, most of them, really handsome. <BR> <BR>However, they flock to every women, not only the American ones... <BR> <BR>Surlok

Yardstick

OK, Maria, you seem to have had a quantitatively bad run of it with your partners, but don't over-generalize your experience. I've had the occasional Italian poodle, but also some fine Italian stallions. <BR>And Holly, "slut" is closely related to "promiscuous"; it generally is used to refer to an individual who has more sex partners than the speaker.

Aman

Holly. Men that insinuate that you are a slut have a problem with their own manhood. For years men were congratulated for "bagging" as many women as they could and women were told they were sluts. What comes around goes around. I think it's fair for women to have the same level of promiscuity without being labeled a slut. Hey guys if all girls were the goody goodys you want, how would we ever get to have any fun. Rock on ladies. To the guys that can't handle it, are you that insecure in yourself that you can't handle some aggressive women. BooHoo you're a bunch of anal retentive babies stuck in the 50's.