Seat wars or how many seats can two people control?
May 31st, 2005, 08:09 AM
#21
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"Thre are plenty of ways to avoid this, 1) fly business or first is the surest, care when booking seats also works,"
Yes, Business or First class would be wonderful, wouldn't it? But there are those of us in the real world who cannot afford this. Ya know?
"2) pre-book decent seats,"
Nice also, but when I called to make arrangements, I was told to get seat assignments when I arrived.
"3) if you get bad seats or no seats, get to the gate early,"
This was the second leg of a flight, and the flight was already booked solid. And we had gotten to the gate at the first leg of the flight more than 2 hours early. Flight was already full.
"4) ask for a change when onboard,"
See above. There was no place to move us. Except to First Class, which was prohibitive based on expenses.
"5) politely ask the person to pull up."
When he first reclined, I did ask if he coule ease up just a bit (once I figured out I couldn't recline). His response was that it was his seat, and I should just recline my own seat. When the person at the window seat had to get out to use the restroom, we ask the row to move their seats up so this person could exit. Only the person in the window seat ahead of us agreed.
So, yeah. I felt justified.
Yes, Business or First class would be wonderful, wouldn't it? But there are those of us in the real world who cannot afford this. Ya know?
"2) pre-book decent seats,"
Nice also, but when I called to make arrangements, I was told to get seat assignments when I arrived.
"3) if you get bad seats or no seats, get to the gate early,"
This was the second leg of a flight, and the flight was already booked solid. And we had gotten to the gate at the first leg of the flight more than 2 hours early. Flight was already full.
"4) ask for a change when onboard,"
See above. There was no place to move us. Except to First Class, which was prohibitive based on expenses.
"5) politely ask the person to pull up."
When he first reclined, I did ask if he coule ease up just a bit (once I figured out I couldn't recline). His response was that it was his seat, and I should just recline my own seat. When the person at the window seat had to get out to use the restroom, we ask the row to move their seats up so this person could exit. Only the person in the window seat ahead of us agreed.
So, yeah. I felt justified.
May 31st, 2005, 08:49 AM
#25
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But why do airlines charge these outrageous business class fares for some flights? On a recent trip from Amsterdam to JFK, economy was 550 euros, business on the same flight 3900 euros. I would have been very willing to pay double the economy fare, even triple, for extra room, but this is just ridiculous for a 7 hour flight. And KLM has no 'in-between' class, as some airlines like Virgin do.
By the way, can you imagine being the one person sitting in the middle seat between those passengers on suec1's flight? Since they do not ask you how much you weigh when you book a flight, they could have booked up all the seats. Or do they then leave behind one passenger since the fat people needed three seats? Or do the fat people actually buy three seats? Somehow, I don't think so.
By the way, can you imagine being the one person sitting in the middle seat between those passengers on suec1's flight? Since they do not ask you how much you weigh when you book a flight, they could have booked up all the seats. Or do they then leave behind one passenger since the fat people needed three seats? Or do the fat people actually buy three seats? Somehow, I don't think so.
May 31st, 2005, 08:55 AM
#26
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Good for your daughter for not giving up despite the bad-mannered traveler's threats!
"c. The flight gets very bumpy (although I seem to be the only one to notice)
d. I get very clumsy and spill water on people."
I'm going to add that one to my repertoire, Ira!! =D>
"c. The flight gets very bumpy (although I seem to be the only one to notice)
d. I get very clumsy and spill water on people."
I'm going to add that one to my repertoire, Ira!! =D>
May 31st, 2005, 09:10 AM
#27
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<b>Tulips</b>,
The business fares are not outrageous. You are just comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare a very restricted, non-refundable, deeply discounted economy fare to a full business fare. There are some people that probably paid (on their own or their employer) around $1500 for a full fare, unrestricted, fully refundable, no advance purchase <b>economy</b> fare and may have sat right next to you. The difference was that, if their plans changed, they needed the flexibility of the full fare economy ticket. So, if you look at it this way, the business class fare is only double or little more than the economy fare.
The business fares are not outrageous. You are just comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare a very restricted, non-refundable, deeply discounted economy fare to a full business fare. There are some people that probably paid (on their own or their employer) around $1500 for a full fare, unrestricted, fully refundable, no advance purchase <b>economy</b> fare and may have sat right next to you. The difference was that, if their plans changed, they needed the flexibility of the full fare economy ticket. So, if you look at it this way, the business class fare is only double or little more than the economy fare.
May 31st, 2005, 09:19 AM
#28
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On the one hand, I sympathize with large people, whose dimensions ensure that already tight economy seating will be truly uncomfortable. On the other hand, this kind of behaviour isn't specific to large people. These people can't have been very experienced flyers - why else would the man actually believe that the captain would involve himself in such a trivial matter.
Suec1, I suggest you encourage your daughter to feel sorry for these people, rather than angry at them or afraid of them. Life must be truly stressful for people who are this fragile and inept at coping with discomfort. Enduring a bully for a few hours is nasty, but coping with a bully who lives inside oneself must be difficult indeed.
Suec1, I suggest you encourage your daughter to feel sorry for these people, rather than angry at them or afraid of them. Life must be truly stressful for people who are this fragile and inept at coping with discomfort. Enduring a bully for a few hours is nasty, but coping with a bully who lives inside oneself must be difficult indeed.
May 31st, 2005, 09:28 AM
#29
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My husband is 6'5" and cannot put his feet on the floor in front of him but he has never denied the person in front of him the right to recline. I'm so sorry for your daughter. It can be hell on flights over 3 hours w/ unbearable people nearby.
May 31st, 2005, 09:48 AM
#30
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To Elaine - the seat re-assignment was just Act 1 of a several act play entitiled the flight from (almost) hell. We were flying Air France as a Delta code share flight (we bought our tickest thru Delta). We got to the airport about an hour and forty five minutes ahead of time (slight subway snafu made us a little later than the 2 hour window) There was a whole group of us that were told we were now wait listed, different reasons were given but it seemed to be that Air France was pushing aside the Delta passengers. Needless to say there was ALOT of buzzing while we waited to see if we would be on the flight (it was the last flight out) but in the end we all got on but in different seats than previoudsly assigned. My daughter now swears she will NEVER fly Air France again but I like the Air France flight because 1)free liquor...2)late flight out - 4:55 - can eat lunch if Paris! ....3)free liquor... 4)individual video screens and did I mention.... 5) free liquor. (Do you think the free liquor was why I was sleeping during most of the seat wars?) However after almost being bumped for a reason we could never figure out I don't know if we will fly Air France again. I might not have minded another night in Paris and vouchers but daughter was really ready to get home. So the end of our trip was a little frustrating but rest assured it will will not deter us from going again as soon as we can!
May 31st, 2005, 09:49 AM
#31
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Speaking of AA, it has been my experience so far that AA's coach seating on transatlantic flights has been noticeably more comfortable than many other airlines.
I've only flown first class once in my life, and (thankfully) that was to Seoul. I'll be flying business class to Israel in a few weeks--I'm very grateful for this gift, since it's a 12 hour flight from JFK.
I know a lot of people who use their frequent flyer points to get seat upgrades, but I've never done that. For one, it seems you can't always get the seats, and for another thing, I'm so greedy that I'd rather use the points for another whole ticket so I can travel more.
I did read somewhere recently about a device that prevents the person if front of you from reclining too far back. You somehow wedge into the back of their seat where your tray is, I think it is not then visible, and then they can recline only so far. I'm not advocating it, just mentioning it.
I've only flown first class once in my life, and (thankfully) that was to Seoul. I'll be flying business class to Israel in a few weeks--I'm very grateful for this gift, since it's a 12 hour flight from JFK.
I know a lot of people who use their frequent flyer points to get seat upgrades, but I've never done that. For one, it seems you can't always get the seats, and for another thing, I'm so greedy that I'd rather use the points for another whole ticket so I can travel more.
I did read somewhere recently about a device that prevents the person if front of you from reclining too far back. You somehow wedge into the back of their seat where your tray is, I think it is not then visible, and then they can recline only so far. I'm not advocating it, just mentioning it.
May 31st, 2005, 09:50 AM
#32
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Bravo for your daughter who did not give in to these people.
I agree that if your able to recline the seats it's up to you. I give the person nod at the person behind me and give them some warning but I've never noticed being inconvienced when the person ahead of me reclines. After all we aren't talking about a lot of room anyway.
Mari5 - good question about the airlines catering to large people at the expense of others. I think that could turn into a whole other (very heated) thread.
I agree that if your able to recline the seats it's up to you. I give the person nod at the person behind me and give them some warning but I've never noticed being inconvienced when the person ahead of me reclines. After all we aren't talking about a lot of room anyway.
Mari5 - good question about the airlines catering to large people at the expense of others. I think that could turn into a whole other (very heated) thread.
May 31st, 2005, 09:54 AM
#33
Last year I spent 3 hours being crammed into 'part' of my seat by the overflow of the person next to me.
Not wanting to cause an embarassing scene, I waited until I got home to complain. I was given a credit against a future trip.
On another trip I had the same thin happen. Prior to take-off, I politely excused myself and went to the back of the plane where I informed the flight attendant of the problem.
She began to tell me there wasn't much she could do. I told her it was the responsibility of the airline to ensure that I had access to my complete seat without having to suffer overflow from the next seat.
She call someone at the front and in a couple of minutes I was reassigned to another seat. Not sure what would have happened if the plane was full.
Do I dig in and make sure there's no overflow?
Not wanting to cause an embarassing scene, I waited until I got home to complain. I was given a credit against a future trip.
On another trip I had the same thin happen. Prior to take-off, I politely excused myself and went to the back of the plane where I informed the flight attendant of the problem.
She began to tell me there wasn't much she could do. I told her it was the responsibility of the airline to ensure that I had access to my complete seat without having to suffer overflow from the next seat.
She call someone at the front and in a couple of minutes I was reassigned to another seat. Not sure what would have happened if the plane was full.
Do I dig in and make sure there's no overflow?
May 31st, 2005, 10:15 AM
#34
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I think the key in all these situations is:
Start out polite but firm about your rights
If necesary be adamant
If pushed - go the Ira route (I love the bumpy flight/drink idea)
As a last resort - take names!
What - or who - activates some of these choices - and the actions of the TAs is always a mystery to me. but my attitude is if they are completely unreasonalbe - I will be too.
I'm fairly tall and have long legs - so middle seats are very uncomfy for me - so I'm always careful to book aisle. On a flight out of Dallas a TA on Continental tried to force me out of my (long-reserved) aisle seat into a middle seat because a "very important" person needed the seat. When I pointed out that a very important person would have their own plane - or at minimum be in first class she was very huffy - and threatened me she would tell the captain if I was uncooperative. I said tell whoever she wanted - I had the boarding pass and the seat and was not moving.
Another TA - claiming to be the cabin chief - then came back and said I had to give up the seat since he was a VP - I told her I was too - and still not moving. Eventually they gave up - but grumbled at me the whole flight. A third TA came by later and said there was no reason for me to move - the "important" passenger was just the boyfriend of one of the other TAs.
Isn't it amazing what people try to get away with?
Start out polite but firm about your rights
If necesary be adamant
If pushed - go the Ira route (I love the bumpy flight/drink idea)
As a last resort - take names!
What - or who - activates some of these choices - and the actions of the TAs is always a mystery to me. but my attitude is if they are completely unreasonalbe - I will be too.
I'm fairly tall and have long legs - so middle seats are very uncomfy for me - so I'm always careful to book aisle. On a flight out of Dallas a TA on Continental tried to force me out of my (long-reserved) aisle seat into a middle seat because a "very important" person needed the seat. When I pointed out that a very important person would have their own plane - or at minimum be in first class she was very huffy - and threatened me she would tell the captain if I was uncooperative. I said tell whoever she wanted - I had the boarding pass and the seat and was not moving.
Another TA - claiming to be the cabin chief - then came back and said I had to give up the seat since he was a VP - I told her I was too - and still not moving. Eventually they gave up - but grumbled at me the whole flight. A third TA came by later and said there was no reason for me to move - the "important" passenger was just the boyfriend of one of the other TAs.
Isn't it amazing what people try to get away with?
May 31st, 2005, 10:21 AM
#35
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I am so impressed with the way your daughter handled everything, bless her heart!
I love the way ira deals with things, I will try to be more like him myself
Thanks for posting this, it was very interesting along with the responses!
I love the way ira deals with things, I will try to be more like him myself
Thanks for posting this, it was very interesting along with the responses!
May 31st, 2005, 10:50 AM
#37
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Reply to suec1. My husband & I had the worst experience w/ Air France. Never again will we fly them. And we were in business class. First they tried to tell us we were in coach. Then they told us that we would make the connection, which my brother, a commercial pilot said that they know when they will miss a connection. They then put us up in a crappy hotel (one towel in bathroom and we never got more even though we asked) 30mins from Paris and the hotel charged us for a meal for our child (who was 3 and had his own ticket). And they told us we were lucky to be staying in that hotel.
May 31st, 2005, 11:03 AM
#38
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This is a very interesting thread, and I think it also demonstrates how far airlines have slipped back to their "don't know/don't care" pre-9/11 mode. People like those you described, suec1, who infringe on the rights of everyone around them should have been booted off that plane. A couple of years ago, I witnessed two women who brought a huge vase of roses aboard insist that the roses stand on the floor. The flight attendant insisted that the flowers be stored in an overhead bin. Guess who won? The two women were escorted off the plane by airport security!
May 31st, 2005, 11:21 AM
#40
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It's unfortunate that United Airlines doesn't let ordinary folk willing to pay the extra fly in economy plus; that privilege is reserved for--I think--Platinum frequent flyers. I'd be perfectly happy to pay extra, but it's not an option.
