Eloise

Ek, We both seem to come here in the morning. But I'll also admit to sometimes being here in the afternoon as well...

The agriturismo thing is really something that I do for pure, sheer relaxation. Not a care in the world: They serve me breakfast, a light lunch and an ample dinner; I love Sicilian cusine. What's not to like? I take a short walk through the property after breakfast, and between meals I read and sometimes nap - depending on my wine consuumption at lunch - in "my" room, which is in the former barn, huge and sunlit.

I love Umbria. And Umbrian food: good, hearty stuff with lots of grilled meat. My favourite place there is Spello, a tiny little hill town almost untouched by time, with a very nice and reasonably priced four-star hotel, the Palazzo Bocci, and a few good restaurants. About 10 minutes or so to Assisi and about 30 minutes to Perugia by train; within reach of two other towns I like - Bevagna and Montefalco - by bus.

I've never really done a trip report, and since one or two of Franco's suggestions were among the things I wanted to follow up on during this trip, I snuck my "report" into his two threads on Venice sightseeing and Venice restaurants. His responses, particularly on the sightseeing thread, are highly recommended reading for anyone interested in the reality of Venice today.

ekscrunchy

Eloise, your travel style sounds very inviting! As does Spello; thank you for sharing the tip about Palazzo Bocci. I much prefer to base myself in one place and make day trips rather than be packing up and driving from hotel to hotel...

So now I have to add Spello to my list of future destinations; Umbria is most enticing and I hope to
get there before all that long. I really should stay away from Fodor's, though. Besides wasting an inordinate amount of time, I keep getting new ideas on where to travel and it makes it difficult to concentrate on daily life when one's head is always on the other side of the world, so to speak! Unfortunately, reading about all of these places is quite a vicarious thrill that makes it very very difficult to pass up!

franco

Oh, how jealous I am! Eloise - 40 years of Rome experience, let's say average one week per year, then it's almost ten months, all in all... and you're calling yourself (on the Venice thread) an "ordinary mortal"?

Eloise

Franco, This time I know you're being sarcastic...

franco

Not exactly... just envious! Cause though I'm much more often in Venice, my favourite city is actually Rome.

etruria

For ekscrunch & eloise from a resident in Italy since 1965: For those coming in the Christmas period, catch the train or bus to Vetralla, an hour north of Rome and have lunch at Da Benedetta (if you come by car its at the only stoplight -on the 68th km. of the Via Cassia) . Its a family run trattoria with great home cooked food, including trippa, faraona ripiena, its hard to pay more than 30 euro with wine. They also have a 3 star hotel if you want to stay overnight. The town is small but has impressive historical connections with the English crown and this year is the 20th for the live christmas pageant that starts at 5 p.m. Articles and photos on www.elegantetruria.com .

ekscrunchy

Etruria, thank you for posting...

To Eloise and Franco and any oxtail fanatics out there, here is an article that is vaguely related to the discussion above:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/ny...mp;oref=slogin

Eloise

Ek, Trust the New York Times to ferret out the news of an astonishing rise in the price of oxtails.

Just as long as there is no shortage of oxtails in Rome while you are there...

ekscrunchy

I don't know, Eloise, what about all the Caribbean immigrants in Rome clamoring for their home-style dishes...along with the Romans demanding their coda?
This may not bode well. I can only hope that the demand for pajata remains steady through January.

Here is a question for which I know you will be able to provide a sensible answer: Should I tip the Rome Shuttle limo driver? I am planning to book them for the airport pickup next month.....

Eloise

Ek, I didn't tip the driver - he did not throw me out of the limousine and he even came to pick me up the next morning to take me to Fiumicino.

Judging from the posts here, though, I think it is more common to tip them than not to tip them.

I find the whole tipping thing in Italy so confusing - Italians not in the tourist business say, don't tip; Italians <b>in</b> the tourist business do expect (North) Americans to tip. So I tend to shift somewhat illogically between the two: some people get tipped, others don't. And the limo driver got the short end of the stick. The next time I'm in Rome, I'll probably tip the limo driver and someone else won't get tipped.

You'd think after 40 years I would have figured out a more sensible system...

franco

Eloise &amp; ek, hello: if I may add my two cents to the tipping-in-Italy problem, I think it's in fact easy. You'd tip a stranger who is providing a personal service for you (waiter, taxi driver, porter...) - but NEVER if during this, though short, while of dealing with him or her you've been able to establish some kind of personal relationship! Italians are very good communicators, and it's more than easy to get into personal contact with them quickly; if so, don't tip. That's why tourists are more likely expected to tip than natives: if you don't speak any Italian, it will be much harder to talk to people, and remaining a complete stranger to them, you should actually tip them. But if you speak some Italian, or if you are lucky enough to find the odd driver or waiter who speaks English well enough to chat with you, you don't tip as well - it's not a question of nationality, just of communicative possibilities (and abilities).
For example, I'm just back from Venice. At my favourite osteria, &quot;my&quot; two waiters were free on the evening I went there, so I was served by a girl who is very nice as well, and we do know each other, but not as well as I know those two guys, and my impression was that her service was, though by no means bad, slightly too professional, too impersonal for a regular guest like me (and she knows I am). So, while the normal procedure at that osteria is that THEY are tipping ME (considerably reducing the prices for me), this time I tipped her to the extent of almost compensating the (very modest) price reduction she had for me. From her somewhat embarassed reaction, it seems that she learned the lesson I wanted to give her as politely as possible: in this case, of course, the tip was a hint of criticism.

Btw, our oxtail discussions here have clearly influenced my Christmas menu: I'm going to prepare a Burgundian oxtail terrine for the holidays...

ekscrunchy

Franco, that really puts a completely different spin on the tipping issue. I would never have thought of it that way.

Recently a friend and I took a taxi from the Bayonne airport to our hotel in the city of Bayonne. The ride took about 20 minutes or so. During the ride we got into a lively and friendly discussion with the taxi driver about the Basque language, local schools, etc (not about food, unfortunately there was not enough time for me to steer the conversation in that direction). When we reached the hotel, the meter read about 17 Euro, as I remember. My friend gave the driver 20 and he returned 3 Euro. She handed it back to him and it was as if he had been slapped. He refused to accept a tip and acted as if it were an insult for us to give him something. So your comments are very interesting and instructive about not tipping if a personal relationship, however brief, has been established.

So..oxtail is on the menu....no shortages where you are, I hope!!! I wish you happy eating!

Eloise, thank you again for the information...interesting subject...

Eloise

Franco, hello. I hope you were as fortunate with the weather in Venice as I was. (Sorry about the delay; the “festive season” got in the way.)

I know your intentions are good (well, at least most of the time...), but oh dear, oh dear! Ek has confirmed from her own experience what you have said about tipping, and I do not doubt that what you say is correct, although my late Roman friend, who discussed each dish with the wait staff in great and exhaustive detail before ordering, always tipped. But it seems to me that the course you recommend is very complicated for someone who is evidently (North) American to put into practice.

First of all, it goes contrary to what is done here. One generally tends to give a larger tip to someone who was genuinely pleasant than to someone who was coolly professional. (But thank God, that dreadful American nonsense - sorry, Ek! - of “Hello, my name is Tom, and I will be your server tonight” has not made it into Canada. We tend to be much more restrained; maybe it’s the British influence, maybe it’s the cold weather; who knows...).

Second - and this seems to me the crux of the problem - how is the Italian waiter or waitress to know that I, as an American (since I don’t wear the Maple Leaf and I have no wish to include in every brief exchange the statement that I am Canadian), am au courant of Italian tipping practices? Will he or she not simply conclude that I am merely being stingy?

I speak sufficient Italian (N.B.: I did not say it was correct Italian) that I can engage in chit-chat with most Italians with whom I come in contact, most of whom are, obviously, people who are rendering me a service of some kind. Still, is that enough to justify in their minds that, unlike the vast majority of American tourists, I do not leave a tip?

One experience that I have thought about probably more often than it warrants occurred in a small trattoria that I happened upon in Rome. The waiter and I joked around while I was placing my order, course by course as I had been taught by my Italian friends who are no longer there to guide me: “Will your cook throw me out the door if I ask for penne alla carbonara instead of spaghetti alla carbonara?” “No, never, I will throw the cook out the door first,” etc., etc. At the end of the meal, I asked for the bill - I never saw a menu; I knew I wanted certain things, other things were suggested by him - and it was extremely reasonable. I paid it; he brought me the change; I left the customary 10% that we in North America are told to leave in Italy. He saw it and his face changed; it was almost a grimace. I was so stunned that I actually asked what the matter was. He mumbled “Non importa” and walked away. To the present day (this was more than a year ago; I’ve been in Rome twice since then), I’ve wondered what went wrong. Was service not included in the bill? (I know it doesn’t go to the waiter, but I thought that, under Italian law, it had to be included.) Did he expect a tip of 15%, which is the minimum in North America? The other possibility - that I had offended him by tipping him at all - had not occurred to me until I read your message. I’m still not at all sure what the problem was... And I’m afraid I still will not dare to return to that trattoria, much as I would like to - it was really excellent and more than reasonable.

Oh, the perils of travel! No wonder I always return to the agriturismo in Sicily where we have established a mutually satisfactory modus vivendi. No wonder I always return to the good nuns in Rome with whom the question of tipping never arises. But I still have to eat in Rome - and that’s where the problems start!

Ek, have you already thought of a topic you might chat about with the limo driver? As I mentioned, though, my driver spoke only Italian. But who knows, perhaps your driver will speak English fluently and discourse with you on Roman history or, better yet, Roman cuisine!

ekscrunchy

Eloise, this topic is certainly intriguing, or at least in our current dissection of it. When I read Franco's post, which sheds an entirely new light on the whole issue, the first thing that came to mind was that the more congenial the service is, the worse tip the server would receive! But I suppose that is looking at it from our perspective...

How will we ever understand the waiter's reponse at the trattoria that you visited? That would seem to be a clue to the whole issue although we have it on Franco's good advice exactly what may have gone wrong. It just runs so contrary to what we know here in the US and, I suspect, in Canada. Amazing that this has never come up in the endless tipping discussions that take place here at Fodor's. What we need is to corral an Italian waiter and ask him! I certainly will discuss this with the front desk person(s) at the hotel when I get to Rome, but they may respond with the general tipping guidelines of rounding up, leaving a few euro, etc, that we have all read a million times. I will have to put all of my ekscrunchy investigative powers into play on this one.

Eloise, I filled out the RomeshuttleLimo form and am waiting for a response regarding airport pickup in two weeks. Interesting thing is that when you go to their site, ads for competitors pop up at the top; this is confusing at first glance.

www.romeshuttlelimousine.com

Now I must think about the discussion topic for the ride to the hotel! Food is the obvious subject and oone that may be dear to the heart of any Italian. I can muddle through a discussion because I speak pretty good Spanish. I don't think a possible coda shortage is a worthwhile topic, though!! The Welby case is of moderate interest but I fear much will get lost with the language disconnect. I think food should take the front seat during the ride (yes, I know, very bad...)........

Now, how can we get an Italian waiter's views?

Eloise

Ek, Yes, it is indeed all somewhat strange.

I'm afraid asking <b>one</b> waiter, much less the hotel front desk, will not bring the clarification we crave. I would suggest that you conduct a thorough investigation and poll the replies of as many Italian waiters as you can. And you must have a control group. So, you chat with half the waiters and then you ask their opinion. You do <b>not</b> chat with the other half and then you ask <b>their</b> opinion. You tabulate the results and post them here at Fodor's, earning you the stunned admiration and eternal gratitude of all the people here who have grappled over the years with this thorny issue. Actually, this is beginning to sound like a very promising project in international economics; may I join you in Rome in January...?

Franco, should you drop by, please do not think we are making fun of you or of your advice. It's simply that it runs so counter, as I have mentioned, to what is done here.

Ek, ouch to the pun! I do agree, however, that food is the obvious topic for the limo driver. But pray tell, what is the Welby case to which you refer? The only Welby I know is the Dr. Welby who appeared on TV more years ago than I would like to think...

And yes, the romeshuttlelimousine site is very confusing until you scroll down. They responded quite quickly to my inquiries, so I hope you will hear from them soon.

ekscrunchy

Eloise, do you think we can get a grant for our research project? I certainly will need an assistant and I will even give you credit when it is published. What do you think is the minimum amount of waiter-subjects?

I am amazed that I am about to show you something you don't know about Italy but here it is: (too bad no one else reads our posts; I can just imagine the brouhaha that this topic would provoke..even more inense than the subject of wearing mink in _______) Do I dare to start a thread on this??

http://federalnewsradio.com/?nid=82&amp;sid=1007797

Eloise

Ek, Thank you for the link. That is indeed a hot topic, and I would hesitate to start a thread with it. Let's face it, I'm a coward.

I have, in fact, wondered whether anyone ever looks at this thread, and if they do, what they make of it...

And now I must go look at the &quot;Fur...&quot; thread before it disappears.

franco

Ek, Eloise, there's at least a third one who follows reading here: me. The weather in Venice was just great, thank you for asking: most of the time, I had spring weather.

Eloise, it might very well be that you offended that Roman waiter by tipping him, but it's of course difficult to judge from afar; there is of course also a type of Italian waiter who is nice and joking with the guests ONLY to get a nice tip - but this is highly improbable in a reasonably priced place as the one where you had your meal... rather a tourist-trap behaviour. I'm convinced, however, that it's never too difficult to distinguish between a personal relationship and professional kindness.
Puzzles over puzzles... personally, I have to figure out now what Eloise thinks about my intentions the rest of the time (apart from &quot;most of the time&quot, and why...

ekscrunchy

While reading about food in Rome for my upcoming trip, I came across this new book; wonder if anyone has read it or seen a copy. The British author has a good reputatin, I believeThe price seems a little steep but I may try to have a peek at it before I leave):

http://www.rizzoliusa.com/catalog/di...=9780789315007

vetralla

Diane Seed is a true expert on Roman cooking and runs a neat little cooking school ... but as I see it the best food is to be had in the homes.