franco

You see? Just again: ek one minute before me!
I repeat, I don't quite understand what those who cooked the oxtails both of you seem to have had did to them (and to you) - in my experience (and I'm regularly cooking oxtail myself), there is really no bone in the whole wide culinary world easier to remove on the plate: a correctly done oxtail literally falls apart, you just need to take the bone and put it aside, no effort at all involved! And no, the oxtails I'm cooking (and eating in Rome) have MUCH more meat than bone. Is it possible that they're selling you ossobuco instead of oxtail?? (Ossobuco: 70 percent bone, 30 percent meat; coda: 30 percent bone, 70 percent meat)

ekscrunchy

Franco now you have confused me! The osso buco cut I buy here in the US has much more meat than bone. I know it depends on where on the shank(?) the meat is cut from..some have more bone than others, but never as much as 70 bone in the ones I have had. I like this very much; the cut is quite costly here in NY.

Now, I have had the coda 3 ways in the US. First is brasied and then shredded and stuffed into ravioli, same preparation as beef cheeks. The second way is braised and shredded and incorporated into a sauce for pasta. Both of these have been fabulous. But when I ate oxtail "on the bone" so to speak, there were cross-sections of several round-ish bones surrounded by a llittle meat. Several of these cross-sections were served in a sauce (I am talkng about Haitian or other Caribbean restaurants here,,not of high quality. But when I see it in "ethnic" markets, it looks like that..I wish I could sketch you a drawing...) I wonder if there is confusion between the word ox and cow...here we go again..we had this discussion before, I think but I can't remember.. Perhaps I was having the tail of another animal in the Haitian places? I am going marketing right now (late already, as usual) so I will look at the meats and see what I can find....

franco

What can I say? Mysterious world of culinary experiences... of course, though, I like coda as a pasta sauce, too. As always, it seems to depend on the local ingredients available where you are. (Just imagine, to come back to Mantovan cuisine, how differently tortelli di zucca can taste, depending on the pumpkin variety - there are literally thousands of them, each one tasting so differently.)

franco

And cross-sections? No. A coda, as I'm used to it, has just one rather small round bone (of a somewhat cartaliginous kind) in the middle, surrounded by nothing than meat. Google helps also in this respect, and I've found a wonderful picture of an oxtail how it should be: voilà - http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=63...F&i=759284, and buon appetito!

ekscrunchy

Franco, yet again you are correct. Just returned from a local market where I checked the oxtail. It is indeed one center bone with what looked like several bony spokes...various sizes depending on what part of the tail they came from. There is plenty of meat on them and I was tempted. I will try soon. It is quite amazing how travel opens up one's world. Last week I made skate for the first time, having enjoyed it in Paris recently. It had never been in my repertoire and now I am planning to make it again..it was so good. So very soon will experiment with the oxtail. Thank you for the photo.

Here is an interesting related article:

http://select.nytimes.com/search/res...A80894DA404482

Eloise

While we're having fast-writing contests, we might as well have Google contests...

This, I think, is what Ek means when she says cross sections:

http://www.deliaonline.com/ingredien...ail,13,IN.html

It's what I also remember from my coda pasta dish; there was some shredded meat mixed with the pasta and one piece of oxtail placed on the side. The oxtail piece had a center bone that seemed to be wider in some parts and narrower in others; it was easier to pick the meat off where the bone was narrower and the meat thicker, but there was no way that I could see of removing the bone in one piece. Was it badly prepared?

I did like the taste, though, and I may just splurge and have the real coda alla vaccinara at Da Checchino dal 1887 the next time I am in Rome.

franco

That's another nice picture, yes. And bony spokes, yes, now we agree, I think. Eloise - I wouldn't like to disappoint you, but yes, if there was any effort involved in removing the bone, I'd say it was badly prepared, sorry. Spokes or no spokes, the bone is always one piece, right? And the meat should be so tender that it really tends to fall from the bone, already when moving the whole piece from the pan to the plate; and when you touch the meat with your fork & knife, it has to come away from the bone upon the lightest pressure. Three or four touches with the knife, without cutting, just gently pushing, and the bone should be perfectly clean and ready to be removed. This, at least, is what a good oxtail stew means for me: meat that is impossible to cut because it immediately falls apart - much less effort than separating bones and meat of, say, a chicken, let alone a trout...

ekscrunchy

You guys are great! One day soon I will try the recipe from Amanda Hesser that I posted above. But I am thinking I will remove the meat from the bones before serving. And will now have to try in Rome!

Re: The skate I wrote about earlier, I see a recipe for Bucatini all Razza (bucatini with skate) in a cookbook by Mario Batali which says that this is a traditonal Romann dish. Live and learn!

Eloise

Ek, since this thread has already wandered all over the map - literally! - from the Basilica di San Francesco in Assisi to high dining at Vissani and a spirited discussion of the quinto quarto, I'm going to shamelessly lead it off on another new angle.

You mention one of Mario Batali's cookbooks. Have you read "Heat" by Bill Buford? I've read the parts tht appeared in the New Yorker, and I'm waiting for the book to come out in paperback. He spends time in Batali's kitchen as well as at that famous butcher shop in Panzano owned by someone called, if I recall correctly, Dario Something. I've enjoyed the parts I've read, and it's a fun look behind the scenes of Italian cooking.

Incidentally, I read somewhere - and please do not ask me where! - that Batali always leaves out a crucial ingredient or procedure in his cookbooks. I wouldn't know, because I've neither eaten at his retaurant(s?) nor own any of his cookbooks...

And another "incidentally": I intensely resent (smiley face) your posting a link to and then discussing an article that is not available to poor and stingy folk like me. If you do make Amanda Hesser's recipe of - I assume - coda alla vaccinara, I shall expect a full report.

SusanP

I've enjoyed following this discussion. I made oxtail soup years ago and it was delicious, so I was all ready to head off for coda alla vaccinara at Da Checchino dal 1887, even though I usually don't like to go that far from my apartment for dinner. However, their website says that in addition to being closed in Aug, they're closed for a week over Christmas, which is when I'll be there.

There surely must be somehwere else I can try this? Preferably closer to Piazza Navona? Any ideas?

franco

SusanP, in fact, the classic way to taste it would really be in the Testaccio district, cause as discussed above, this is the traditional quarter of the quinto quarto. Other than Checchino, there is old-fashioned Perilli, famous for the coda alla vaccinara - they're doing the second classic variation, with chocolate going into the sauce. Or else, if you go to Checchino (even if it's closed, just for orientation), turn your back to the entrance and turn around the corner to the right, walk along a few yards, on the right hand, i.e. on the very sidewalk where you are walking, there is another of those typical Testaccio restaurants, a much simpler and cheaper one, but very good, too (I don't recall the name, sorry).
If you really want to avoid going to Testaccio (which is a pity IMO - I think it's worth seeing this typical and unspoiled Roman district), there are of course many restaurants throughout the city serving coda alla vaccinara - Sora Lella on the tiny Tiber island, for example, another of my favourite Roman restaurants (though I've never tasted their coda, and I don't know whether it's always on the menu, but you'll hardly find a bad dish at Sora Lella's!).

SusanP

Franco, Thanks for the suggestion. It's not that I don't want to go to Testaccio. I did go to that area when I was in Rome in March. I wanted to go to Volpetti, but it was closed and didn't reopen until 5:00, and that was too long to wait--I plan to go again this time. The reason I ususally try to stay closer to the apt for dinner is solely because by that time I'm pooped!

ekscrunchy

Eloise, I am really sorry about the link. It just pops up when I click on it but I realize that is because I am a Times subscriber; it is really annoying when that happens. It was about Amanda Hesser (NY Times writer and cookbook author) visiting Testaccio and eating at Perilli. In the article she describes how she tries to convince her grandmother to order as the Romans do..several courses at a meal, etc etc. With a recipe for coda. Sorry, and hope you forgive me AGAIN! (I did not forget Don Camillo and Cesari!!)

Anyway, yet I did read Heat. I have heard that allegation about leaving out an ingredient many times..who knows if it is true. I took Molto Italiano (one of Batali's cookbooks) out yesterday and recommend it; I have not tried the recipes but they look really good and the photos and introduction are informative, if a bit basic for some of us. I have used his recipes before and liked them a lot; made his farro Luccese last week..let me try to link the recipe:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci...ml?rsrc=search

I added dried porcini and just had some leftovers for lunch. I also added a rind of Parmigiano Reggiano while cooking....Excellent.

Anyway, I enjoyed Heat. That butcher in Panzano, Dario Cecchini someone is getting so much press; he is mentioned in Faith Willinger's book Eating in Italy, too. I have never been there and suspect it would be wasted on someone without a nearby kitchen. One interesting thing is that he gets his bistecca from Spain, as he is not happy with the local cows for a reason I forget.

The Mario Batali restaurants are very good and he is kid of a pioneer of quinto quarto meats. But he is getting to be more of a "personality" than a cook these days, as are most of those former chefs, now authors, tv stars, restaurant owners and cookware manufacturers on that network. I love a good food tv show as much as anyone but the only ones I like nowdays are the ones on public television like Lydia Bastianich, Michael Colameco, Jacques Pepin, etc. Joanne Wier, who seems really good from her books, has a new show about to debut soon that will probably be good.


http://www.babbonyc.com/travel.html


(take a look at the travel archives and the cucina section)

Now I am off on a real tangent; I am not even sure if you get PBS where you live, as I seem to remember that you live in Canada. I could be way off on this fact, though....

I have gone so far off course I forget what I am supposed to be posting about......

jjkbrook

If I may, I think that Orvieto, Viterbo or one of the Castelli Romani would make a great side trip, with culture and,in the case of Orvieto, interesting culinary shopping as well as food. Appia Antica also has some very relaxing restaurants alongside and is a lovely walk on a winter day (check when it is closed to traffic). If you want regional food as opposed to more of an international style, you cant do better than to check the slowfood reccs at slowfood.it - there are several in each of these towns, as well as Rome, of course. It seems to me that there are also campanian towns with fine food closer to Rome by train than Napoli - once again, Slowfood should have some helpful info if you work through their regional selections
http://associazione.slowfood.it/asso.../osterie.lasso
Someone on this thread mentioned La Campana - we first visited there more than 25 years ago and liked it a lot - two years ago we revisited and thought it had slipped a bit. Still ok, but Certainly Armando al Pantheon was quite a lot better. One very good dish at La Campana was a very mellow vegetable soup (mostly greens), which I think was called vignerola that included guanciale. Their antipasti table was also ok.

ekscrunchy

jjkbrook; Thank you very much for your informative response to my queries. I was interested in La Campana because it appears to be one of the few restaurants in the city center that is open on Sunday evening; Ditirambo is another, according to my notes.

I have compiled the list of slowfood places in Rome and plan to use that during my trip. But your idea of a slowfood rec in Campania that is closer to Rome than Naples in a brilliant one! Although at this point, with only a week and a plan to visit Orvieto, and a possible return to Da Rodo in Nettuno, who knows if we will have time? I like the idea of a walk along Appia Antica and will put that on my list. Again, many thanks for taking the time and for the excellent ideas.

Eloise

Ek, you’ve beaten me to the punch again...!

But since this thread has already wandered all over God's little acre, here are my opinions, which are worth exactly as much as you are paying for them...

SusanP,

I also do not like to eat dinner far away from my lodgings near Navona, but I do go much further afield for lunch. The danger, of course, is that after an ample lunch with wine, my afternoons may not be as full of energy, sights and experiences as they might otherwise be.

But do think of making a day of Testaccio and the Aventine. I’ve walked over from Navona - there’s only one part that is pretty soulless - passing Santa Maria in Cosmedin and the two temples, going up to Santa Sabina, one of my favourite early-Christian churches in Rome, peeping through the famous keyhole at the Cavalieri di Malta and wending my way down through a few other notable churches before lunch. After lunch, I’ve puttered around in and near Testaccio - Pyramid of Cestius, Protestant Cemetery with the graves of Keats and Shelley (although Shelley’s widow had his heart buried with her in, of all places, Bournemouth) - before grabbing a bus back to Navona. And dining lightly in my room on a picnic gathered from Volpetti and some neighborhood forni and wine shops.

Ek,

Thanks for all the information.

The farro soup sounds interesting, even though I rather suspected that Mario Batali has become more of a “personality” than a chef. Still, thanks also for the link to the Babbo site. I once happened on the site but didn’t realize that there was a whole archive of travel articles. I think we both read Batali’s article on Bologna and environs some time ago in Gourmet...

I know Amanda Hesser’s writing - although I missed that particular article - because I read the NYTimes on line every Sunday. Not all of it: only Travel, Book Review and Magazine. And I shall even graciously forgive you (joke).

There’s a poster over on SlowTrav - Diva - who once worked for/with/under the famous Dario, and she was a bit incensed that there are now tourists who walk into his butcher shop and ask him to burst into song or recite Dante or whatever eccentric thing he is noted for. Diva - Judy Something - now runs Divina Cucina, the madly expensive cooking school for tourists in Florence. I haven’t been to Florence in years and don’t expect to return, but I think she’s fairly sound on restaurants in Florence, should one of your gastronomic visits take you there:

http://www.divinacucina.com/code/florence.html

And yes, even here in the far North, we get PBS and a Food Network (I’m not sure it’s exactly the same as the American one). I’ll look out for the PBS shows you mentioned.

Jjkbrook,

You’ve known La Campana longer than I have: I ate there for the first time 21 years ago. I also liked their vignarola; I wonder whether, as a traditional spring dish, it will be on the menu in January when Ek is in Rome.

And departing from my resolve not to say anything about SlowFood restaurants in Rome (or elsewhere, for that matter; I’ve just eaten at one in Venice where the tourists vastly outnumbered the Venetians), I’ll also put in a word for Armando al Pantheon. I do worry a little about it, though; the last time I was there it was about fifty-fifty Romans and tourists.

hausfrau

Hi ekscrunchy,
I can't comment since I haven't been to Rome in over 10 years, but I just had to post because, as you may recall, we were just in Domme (I posted on your Dordogne restaurants thread) and now my husband and I are spending Christmas in Rome and staying at...you guessed it, Albergo del Senato! It's a small world...

Hope you ate well in the Dordogne (we sure did!) and thanks for starting such helpful posts!

SusanP

Eloise, yes, I may have to think about going for lunch. I see that Checchino is open for lunch. As I mentioned, I did to to that area last time. After taking the bus to Volpetti, I walked up the Aventine to San Anselmo & San Sabina to the Keyhole and down the other side to Circus Maximus. This time I will go further down Via Marmorata to include the Pyramid & Protestant Cemetary. Thanks for the suggestion.

franco

Today's lunch made me think of the bone fighting discussion we've had here: roast kid back, a Greek recipe (I actually thought about going to Greece next spring, but always when thinking of Greek food, I'm reconsidering this destination over and over - especially today!). Now THIS was actually tough eating, with almost exclusively bones and the scarce flesh absolutely resistant to any effort of cutting it from the carcass...
Ok, end of sidenote. Eloise - I've had the same NYT website problem and can't therefore compare with Hesser's version, but I have what is supposed to be Perilli's original coda alla vaccinara recipe. If you want it, I could translate and type it for you here - just advise, please.

ekscrunchy

Hausfrau..I do remember you! I hope you have a wonderful trip to Rome with lots of good eating. I wrotte a report on my eating in the Dordogne that you can find...I posted the last bit just this morning; there is lots of food info, of course!

Eloise..you are a real font of information on eating and on Rome in general. You, and Franco, have convinced me to make a day of it in Testaccio and the idea of eating lunch ther, rather than dinner, is a good one, so we can do some exploring and pay a visit to Volpetti. I did visit Volpetti and the food market last time but was frustrated cause I went too early in my stay to buy lots of food items to take home. So this time will plan to visit a day or so before I leave Rome and do some buying. That store alone is worth a trip to the neighborhood and now I have your great info on meandering around the area. I, too, am torn about the idea of eating a big lunch since, especially with wine, it kind of knocks the drive out of me for further exploring. The obvious thing is to avoid the wine at lunch but for some reason (!!) I have a hard time with this. But what a great idea..have the lunch and bring some great things back for a light dinner in the room in the evening. Also, Divina Cucina is one of those things that gets touted endlessly here..expensive is an understatement. I suspect the same might be true of Maureen Fant's Testaccio food tour and cooking class.......wonder if anyone has done this...?????

Franco..I would urge you to consider a visit to Segovia province in Spain to sample the roast suckling lamb...you can even dig up my verbose report on my trip last May..in fact, here it is; scroll down towards the end for all the lamb details...


http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34810840

Now I know why I get nothing done in my house...laundry left piled up, stack of recupes to try..all sacrificed to Fodors and fascinating discourses like this one... Now if I can only find a way to link that Hesser coda recipe......