DD and I are leaving for Italy next week - 1st time. We will be spending a week in Rome (Trastevere), then 3 nights in Venice, on to Verona (2 nights), Mennagio at Lake Como (week) and Florence (3 nights). I am not good with crowds, but must just make peace with all the other people who also want to be there! This is the only time of the year that I can travel. I do love art and history, but am not really in the mood for 'doing' one museum or famous sight after the other. I guess what I really need is for a seasoned traveller to point me towards the quieter areas, smaller churches, simple places where good food and a nice glass of wine can be enjoyed. I am an early riser, and am planning to be walking the streets just after sunrise, be there when the doors to what we want to see are opened, and disappear when it gets too hot or crowded. Please - any other suggestions will be highly appreciated.

I think that's a good plan: rise early, see things early, siesta during the hottest and most crowded parts of the day.

In Rome, there is just so much to see and do apart from the major sights. Villa Borghese... you could spend an entire day wandering through the park. Same with the Boboli Gardens in Florence. In Venice, go out to Torcello. No crowds, amazing church with amazing mosaics, and a lovely ride on the lagoon. In Verona, go to the Roman theater. Not the arena, but the theater.

There was recent thread about a family wanting parks and gardens in Italy. There might be good suggestions there.

Even in Venice, you will be able to get away from the crowds, and not only in the early mornings.

I like to use walking tours that I find in gooks (for Venice, J Links' Venice for Pleasure and another book that I bought in Venice, I think it's called "30 Walks in Venice") to help me end up visiting places where there are fewer tourists. On one "Venice for Pleasure" walk, late one morning, we ended up outside a bar/cafe in Cannaregio where we were the only people drinking coffee - everyone else (before noon) was drinker something stronger. And on the opposite end of Venice, we were in the midst of local residents doing their regular shopping, hanging out laundry, taking their kids to school (in the outer reaches of Castello). There are a multitude of lovely churches in Venice that only have a few visitors at a time.

The same with Rome. I like Trastevere, in particular - that's where we stayed on our last trip to Rome. Santa Cecilia is one of my favorite churches; her sculpture looks, to me, like it could have been carved in the last 10 years, it's such an unusual perspective. Here, too, we wandered small streets and were the only visitors in some places.

If you click on my user name, at the bottom of the page you'll see a couple of trip reports that I've written about Venice. Mostly they are about things that you can see in Venice apart from the usual big ticket sights.

A good book to have a look at is "Secret Venice" by Jonglez. All sorts of interesting info, made my most recent trip much more interesting.

Another vote for Trastevere. Also a day trip to admire the fountains at Tivoli and the quaint town.

Thanks everybody - this is exactly what I need!

In Rome, I found that the churches are so large you don't feel smothered by other people who are there at the same time. For some out of the way churches that I've enjoyed:

In Trastevere: San Francisco a Ripa with the exceptional Bernini Ecstasy of Ludovica Albertoni. The sculpture is in a side chapel on the left near the altar and you can get up close without anyone else being there. The afternoon, or late morning, light is best as it's too dark to clearly see early in the morning. The only light is from a small window.

Sant' Andrea al Quirinale - an oval Baroque church designed by Bernini. It's gorgeous and has few tourists.

St. Paul Outside the Walls - magnificent and huge. Again, off the beaten tourist path. It's one of the 4 main Roman basilicas and is full of beautiful marble.

In Venice see the Miracoli church. Once you get a bit beyond St. Mark's square there are fewer tourists.

On Murano, most people go to the glass blowing area. I believe there are 4 vaporetti stops for this island. I doubt many people visit the glass museum so get off there and start wandering.

I also recommend Torcello where few people go (they're concentrated on Burano) for the magnificent church. It's a peaceful small island.

Lake Como - take the ferry that loops around rather than the one that goes to Mennagio, Varenna, and Bellagio. There are many small town to visit. Again, off the tourist trail.

A couple of ideas in Florence for someone like you who's an early riser.

Head to the Duomo first thing in the a.m. to climb the steps to the top. You'll avoid the lines for one of the top attractions in the city and get a great morning view. We did it our first morning in Florence because we were still jet-lagged and woke up very early. Hardly anyone there when it first opened.

Or early in the a.m., take a bus to Piazzalle Michelangelo, have your morning coffee and a roll as you sit on a perch and watch the sun rise over the city. Then you can stroll back down into the city (it's downhill and not a bad walk if you're in decent shape).

In Venice, for something a little different, visit the Jewish Ghetto and museum. When you get the square that comprises the ghetto, you'll think you're in another world. And the museum is interesting. (I'm not Jewish, and I enjoyed the area.)

We love Florence and try to get there each time we visit Italy. If you don't like crowds, avoid the Uffizi. Though it is crowded, do see the Accademia for Michelangelo's David. You need only spend a half hour or so but you must not miss it.

Visit the Museo San Marco to see the beautiful Fra Angelico frescos - usually not very crowded. Take a bus (about 25 minutes) from Piazza San Marco to Fiesole, a small town overlooking Florence. The views are spectacular and we have seldom seen crowds there. Have lunch overlooking the city.

Visit Santa Croce, a bit out of the way and full of art. The cloisters are lovely.

Enjoy your trip.

One good resource is the Michelin green guides. They include many more sights than the basic guide books and I'm sure you will find a lot of interesting places that are not mobbed.

Keep in mind that many people are on bus tours and see the top 3 or 4 sights and get no further than that.

For instance - in Florence we found that everyone foused on the Academia, the Uffizi and the central mercado - comparatively few bothered to cross the river to go to the Pitti Palace.

In Venice we loved visiting Torcello - not on a tour but jst via a regular vaporetto. Most tourists never get to the islands and those that do usually head to Murano for the glass blowing - and possibly Burano. Torcello was quite quiet and was fascinating t oexplore the area where the venetians first hid when the barbarians came over the Alps - esp the church with the Byzantine mosaics.

O thank you thank you! I feel so much better now. Thanks for the trip reports Peter. I started off by making notes, but in the end just printed the lot. I have moved to Dubai in February this year, and had a nice giggle about your comment on 'mine is bigger than yours'. Freud did say ... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (!). But never again will I look at the Burj Khalifa in exactly the same way.

About Rome: is it worth it to buy the 7day pass for trains/buses? Adrienne and Worldinabag: where did you eat in Trastevere? Any recommendations? We will be staying in an apartment, so the thing about gloves in grocery stores have been duly noted. I believe we will make a day trip to Tivoli, so glad you mentioned that! Again: any ideas on where to eat in Tivoli?
About Venice: I see-sawed a lot before deciding to go there. Yes, I just have to experience it. No, everybody says it will be too crowded (in the words of another Fodorite: 'like a zoo'). In the end I did decide to spend 3 nights. Your tips just let me see that it will still be possible to enjoy Venice - away from most other people. Thanks for that.
About Verona; I am aiming for the opera in the Roman arena / theatre (not sure which). Did anybody reading here do this? Was it worth it?
Mennagio at lake Como: here I just want to relax for a week. After the desert colours of Dubai, I am hungry for blue and green and white. I am contemplating one day trip to Milan, just for the Last Supper. Will this be a good plan?
About Florence: thanks for the recommendations Vincenzo and Mamcalice - you have read me well and your ideas will surely guide be there.
NYTraveller and others: I am heading for Dubai's big bookstore tomorrow to see if I can find the guides that you recommend.

In Trastevere, we had a very enjoyable dinner at Ristorante le Mani in Pasta, Via dei Genovesi, 37. It seemed to be mostly locals (we were there in October), and the pasta was very good.

As you have an apartment, consider going to a pasta shop, so you can buy freshly-made pasta to take home: Pasta All'Uovo Fresca Di Piras Simonetta, via del Moro, 32. We actually bought some fettuccine on our last day there, and took it home to the U.S. with us. It's a small place, and sells only pasta. The filled pastas will be in a small case in front. For everything else, you tell them what you want (fettuccine, linguine, etc.), they pull out a sheet of pasta, run it through their pasta machine, and your pasta's cut to size.

I Suppli, Via di San Francesco a Ripa, 137, sells suppli and other to-go type items; it will be totally packed at certain times of day.

Almost right next door is Antica Caciara, Via di San Francesco a Ripa, 140, which sells cheese and meats. The people there were very helpful in assisting us in picking out some meats and cheeses for a "picnic" lunch on the airplane back home.

Years later, my friends are still talking about the gnocchi infused with sage that they ate at Restaurant Pancotto on Via le Trastevere, 8-14. We all ordered something different and tasted each other's dish. Everything was very good but the gnocchi was very sagey, something my friend has been unable to duplicate. I suspect it's the fresh Italian ingredients that made it so good.

Ahh - Santa Croce in Florence - I walked around in awe - the building, cloisters and grounds wonderful, great art too - but to think about those buried there - Michelangelo; Machiavelli; Galileo; Marconi et al - universal Italians who indisputably changed the World and continue to profoundly influence our activity and thinking - to the point that we don't necessarily ascribed our thoughts or what we are doing to them - it is just
"stuff" we know or do.

I am not religious (at all), and certainly not Catholic, but this is a "sacred" place that made my heart and mind soar!

lots of great ideas above; may add one or two to them?

Venice - on the way to the Fondamente nova to catch the vaporetto to Burano and thence to Torcello, do call in at the church of the Gesuiti - there are the most amazing marble curtains you've ever seen and there's no-one there but you to admire them.

Rome - almost any church you come across will have something to admire that anywhere else would have people flocking to it in their droves. and for a very quiet and rewarding couple of hours, do go to the Galleria Doria Pamphilj - the entrance is off the seething via del corso ,but once you're in there, it is an oasis of peace and quiet with a quite wonderful [and wonderfully rich] collection of art and sculpture.

http://www.doriapamphilj.it/home.asp

Florence - i second Santa Croce, and if you can get there early enough [it opens at 8.15 am but closes at 1pm] the Monasterio di San Marco at the top of via cavour has the works of Fra Angelico which you can admire all by yourself for half an hour or so.

http://www.polomuseale.firenze.it/en/musei/?m=sanmarco

From the Piazza San Marco get the bus up to Fiesole for some more quiet walking enjoying the ancient Duomo [hardly anyone gets in there] the roman amphitheatre, and the monasterio di San Francesco which has a free museum in its basement which is both free and deserted! plus a most lovely presepe [nativity scene] in the cloisters.

in Oltrarno, the Giardino Bardini is lovely and sees relatively few visitors:

http://www.bardinipeyron.it/ab/cont__11.phtml

have a wonderful trip!

Florence - I agree with a previous poster re the Uffizi. We lost a lot of time on it, definitely prebook if going and have a plan for exactly what you want to se ( i am an art lover and loved everything else about Florence but I regretted the amount of time we used on it ) I got a lot more from the Accademia
& Michelangelo's David. However it was the unfinished sculptures that really blew me away, we were amazed by them. We also went to the Brancacci Chapel of the basilica of Santa Maria del Carmine and saw Massacio's Tribute money, church was deserted and it was lovely to see something like that away from the crowds!
And to give Verona a mention- I really loved it there after the madness of Venice ( I had waited to see Venice for so long and was slightly underwhelmed) the food was better in Verona than Venice and we found it way better value, just sitting back in Piazza Bra and relaxing was lovely, we also did a very handy day trip to Lake Garda from there which was a very short train ride away. This would be easier than getting to lake Como? I did go o see the Arena in Verona but we were too early for the Opera season,, however it was definitely worth a tour! Also in Florence do not miss the Duomo, it's definitely worth the climb to the top! When you catch that first glimpse of Santa Maria Del Fiore poking out from the building around it you will love it!

Also we had 3 nights in Venice and found it to be enough, Murano island was lovely and the one good meal we had was at http://www.algiubagio.net/ lovely view looking over the lagoon.

I highly recommend the Venice Chorus Pass for 10 euro that allows the holder to visit some 15+ churches good for a year. Otherwise, it's 3 euro per visit per one of these churches including the Frari, Miracoli, etc. I like making one of the churches as the goal for various walks.

Here's the link: http://www.chorusvenezia.org/index.p...&id=7&Itemid=7

For Rome, some sights that are not necessarily on the "A" list, but I really enjoyed are San Pietro in Vincoli where you can see not only the chains, but Michelangelo's jaw-dropping sculpture of Moses, The Baths of Caracalla is a really cool place to wander around. And finally, you might find some peace of mind by walking up the Aventine Hill and seeing the various things there. My favorite is the Basilica of Santa Sabina and the park-like grounds.

We were in Rome for a week and planned one big event early in the day for each day and then let rest of it sort of fall into place. Plan a gelato break at least once or twice a day.

Hi again

We never ate in Trastevere. However we had a fantastic meal in Tivoli - Ristorante Monte Ripoli - http://web.mclink.it/ML0410/monterip...ristorante.htm. Trust me on this one, I grew up in an Italian kitchen