RETHINKING OUR POSITION ON FRANCE...
Mar 16th, 2003, 11:13 AM
#61
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P.S. From Maureen Dowd's column in today's NY Times...
"The Los Angeles Times reported on Friday that a classified State Department report debunks the hawks' domino theory and expresses doubt that installing a new regime in Iraq will foster democracy.
And Don Van Natta Jr. of The New York Times reveals that Al Qaeda is using rising anger among young Muslims about the plan to overthrow Saddam to recruit and groom a new generation of terrorists."
Fasten your seat belts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/opinion/16DOWD.html
"The Los Angeles Times reported on Friday that a classified State Department report debunks the hawks' domino theory and expresses doubt that installing a new regime in Iraq will foster democracy.
And Don Van Natta Jr. of The New York Times reveals that Al Qaeda is using rising anger among young Muslims about the plan to overthrow Saddam to recruit and groom a new generation of terrorists."
Fasten your seat belts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/opinion/16DOWD.html
Mar 16th, 2003, 11:19 AM
#62
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"I'd argue that Mikhail Gorbachev had far more to do with that than any conservative Republican U.S. president. "
Capo,
Well of course you would but you'd be WRONG!
Gorby himself said that the end was brought about because of SDI (Star Wars to you liberals) and the fact that Reagan wouldn't back down and Gorby knew he couldn't keep up!
And it began to end when Thatcher and Reagn, despite all the whining of the socialist peaceniks, (kind of like now!) decided to put cruise missiles in Western Europe!
REMEMBER Capo (hopefully youu can since many of you liberals have selective amnesia)it wasn't Gorby that said, "Mr Gorbachev if you value freedom tear down this wall."
Man it still mists my eyes to know Reagan said that and almost 1 billion people were eventually freed!
US
Capo,
Well of course you would but you'd be WRONG!
Gorby himself said that the end was brought about because of SDI (Star Wars to you liberals) and the fact that Reagan wouldn't back down and Gorby knew he couldn't keep up!
And it began to end when Thatcher and Reagn, despite all the whining of the socialist peaceniks, (kind of like now!) decided to put cruise missiles in Western Europe!
REMEMBER Capo (hopefully youu can since many of you liberals have selective amnesia)it wasn't Gorby that said, "Mr Gorbachev if you value freedom tear down this wall."
Man it still mists my eyes to know Reagan said that and almost 1 billion people were eventually freed!
US
Mar 16th, 2003, 11:25 AM
#63
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capo,
NY Times and LA times, I'm amazed that you used such unbiased sources (LOL)...what happened was Molly Ivins too busy!
Also, what you failed to mention is that the ex CIA agent quoted hasn't been afilliated with that agency for 10 years...c'mon capo you're better than that!
US
NY Times and LA times, I'm amazed that you used such unbiased sources (LOL)...what happened was Molly Ivins too busy!
Also, what you failed to mention is that the ex CIA agent quoted hasn't been afilliated with that agency for 10 years...c'mon capo you're better than that!
US
Mar 16th, 2003, 11:33 AM
#65
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"New York Times reveals that Al Qaeda is using rising anger among young Muslims about the plan to overthrow Saddam to recruit and groom a new generation of terrorists."
Capo: Did you see VP Dick Cheney today on Meet the Press? He answered the question of whether war would just cause more terrorist attacks especially in the U. S.. Cheney responded that we did nothing to provoke the September 11 attack, the U.S.S. Cole attack, U.S. Embassy in Africa attack or the 1993 WTC bombing. Yet, WE were attacked anyway.
Isn't it time we finally take action? Or do we just sit and wait until "the rest of the world" decides we are justified in defending us and the world against a ruthless dictator.
If you want to at least balance the liberal slant with another point of view, take a look at how we got where we are today "Bracing for the Apocalypse":
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20030213.shtml
Capo: Did you see VP Dick Cheney today on Meet the Press? He answered the question of whether war would just cause more terrorist attacks especially in the U. S.. Cheney responded that we did nothing to provoke the September 11 attack, the U.S.S. Cole attack, U.S. Embassy in Africa attack or the 1993 WTC bombing. Yet, WE were attacked anyway.
Isn't it time we finally take action? Or do we just sit and wait until "the rest of the world" decides we are justified in defending us and the world against a ruthless dictator.
If you want to at least balance the liberal slant with another point of view, take a look at how we got where we are today "Bracing for the Apocalypse":
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20030213.shtml
Mar 16th, 2003, 12:01 PM
#67
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Lorac, just because Cheney -- or you, or any others -- feel that a nearly-unilateral U.S. attack on Iraq *should* not provoke further Al-Qaeda terrorism, doesn't mean that it won't.
I'm not saying the risk of "blowback" doesn't mean a nation like the U.S. should not take some action. Just that we should be aware that the risk of future terrorism may actually increase, not decrease, because of such action.
Thanks for the link to Krauthammer's column. I don't always agree with him, but I read his columns when I can. From reading his column, you'd think he was completely oblivious to the fact that M.A.D. (mutally assured destruction) "worked" for both the Soviet Union (who Reagan once famously called the "evil empire") and the U.S., that nations, or leaders, with at least a shred of rationality and self-preservation will not choose to unleash weapons of mass destruction on another nation, like the U.S. that not only possesses them but has demonstrated -- in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- that it will use them.
I'm not saying the risk of "blowback" doesn't mean a nation like the U.S. should not take some action. Just that we should be aware that the risk of future terrorism may actually increase, not decrease, because of such action.
Thanks for the link to Krauthammer's column. I don't always agree with him, but I read his columns when I can. From reading his column, you'd think he was completely oblivious to the fact that M.A.D. (mutally assured destruction) "worked" for both the Soviet Union (who Reagan once famously called the "evil empire") and the U.S., that nations, or leaders, with at least a shred of rationality and self-preservation will not choose to unleash weapons of mass destruction on another nation, like the U.S. that not only possesses them but has demonstrated -- in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- that it will use them.
Mar 16th, 2003, 12:09 PM
#68
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Capo,
Yes we used them and saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American military lives and the lives of untold civilians in Japan as we avoided an invasion.
And if need be we should use them again!
US
Yes we used them and saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American military lives and the lives of untold civilians in Japan as we avoided an invasion.
And if need be we should use them again!
US
Mar 16th, 2003, 01:04 PM
#69
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You can't save the lives of people that you don't know were going to die. That is rationalization, which in itself is not bad, but we don't KNOW that they would have died, something else might have happened. Only charlatons pretend to know the future.
Mar 16th, 2003, 01:21 PM
#70
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Why do Americans hate us( the French) so much ?
Because they are jealous of our good lifestyle and free-thinking.
It is always funny when those of those brainwashed right-wing morons boast about first amendment and freedom of speech and democracy.
But they don't accept another opinion and they try to bully, bribe or punish those who beg to differ.
What a bunch of hypocrites.
But you're right to be angry. 911 was like a collective rape of America and the whole world saw this humiliation on TV again and again and will not forget this moment. And you know it and we know it.
I'm quite cetain Fordors will exercise its very selective right to delete this message but not the pseudo-political crap of hate-filled pro-war and pro-Bush posters/
So predictable american "democracy" and "freedom" at work. Here and elsewhere...
Because they are jealous of our good lifestyle and free-thinking.
It is always funny when those of those brainwashed right-wing morons boast about first amendment and freedom of speech and democracy.
But they don't accept another opinion and they try to bully, bribe or punish those who beg to differ.
What a bunch of hypocrites.
But you're right to be angry. 911 was like a collective rape of America and the whole world saw this humiliation on TV again and again and will not forget this moment. And you know it and we know it.
I'm quite cetain Fordors will exercise its very selective right to delete this message but not the pseudo-political crap of hate-filled pro-war and pro-Bush posters/
So predictable american "democracy" and "freedom" at work. Here and elsewhere...
Mar 16th, 2003, 01:41 PM
#72
No one has the answers, NO ONE. Put a face on every woman, and child, and every old person, when you think of starting this war. And Uncle_Sam, don't be so nasty to posters with opposite views from you, it's so unAmerican.
And if you slam that door again on my butt, you are in for more than you bargained for.(she says, making her voodoo doll
...)
And if you slam that door again on my butt, you are in for more than you bargained for.(she says, making her voodoo doll
...)
Mar 16th, 2003, 02:15 PM
#73
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'Put a face on every woman, and child, and every old person, when you think of starting this war."
cigale,
how long do you think it wil take you to do just that to the 2,000,000 that this madman has killed and is killing daily!
US
cigale,
how long do you think it wil take you to do just that to the 2,000,000 that this madman has killed and is killing daily!
US
Mar 16th, 2003, 03:12 PM
#74
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Capo: "just because Cheney -- or you, or any others -- feel that a nearly-unilateral U.S. attack on Iraq *should* not provoke further Al-Qaeda terrorism, doesn't mean that it won't."
Apparently, I did not make myself clear enough. What he meant was that by doing NOTHING for the last ten years, the U.S. and its citizens were attacked and many were killed ANYWAY.
Apparently, the quiet diplomatic approach doesn't exactly work with lunatics as we have seen through 17-- going on--18 U.N. resolutions. So ALL terrorist organizations and their supporters and sugar daddies must be crippled and brought down... In reality, all the U. S. is doing is enforcing the U. N.'s on resolution.
Uncle Same is absolutely correct when he says that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved thousands of lives by ending the war. Aren't we supposed to learn from history so as to not let history repeat itself?
Apparently, I did not make myself clear enough. What he meant was that by doing NOTHING for the last ten years, the U.S. and its citizens were attacked and many were killed ANYWAY.
Apparently, the quiet diplomatic approach doesn't exactly work with lunatics as we have seen through 17-- going on--18 U.N. resolutions. So ALL terrorist organizations and their supporters and sugar daddies must be crippled and brought down... In reality, all the U. S. is doing is enforcing the U. N.'s on resolution.
Uncle Same is absolutely correct when he says that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved thousands of lives by ending the war. Aren't we supposed to learn from history so as to not let history repeat itself?
Mar 16th, 2003, 03:43 PM
#76
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moonbeam,
if it were the number killed by sanctions...then you can lay that blame right at the feet of the man that caused the sanctions..... Saddam Hussein!
He hid billions and spent billions on palaces while lefties like you complained of sanctions!
Wonder how much food and medicine he COULD have bought for hsi peopel had he chose to do so?
You defend him moonbeam...that's a mightty weak position to take, but I'm sure you will!
US
if it were the number killed by sanctions...then you can lay that blame right at the feet of the man that caused the sanctions..... Saddam Hussein!
He hid billions and spent billions on palaces while lefties like you complained of sanctions!
Wonder how much food and medicine he COULD have bought for hsi peopel had he chose to do so?
You defend him moonbeam...that's a mightty weak position to take, but I'm sure you will!
US
Mar 16th, 2003, 03:45 PM
#77
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Moonbeam: That comment was nasty, nasty, nasty. Let's try to be civil.
No one on this forum is on trial and nothing we say here will impact world events in the least.
SH and Al-Quaida are the culprits we should focus our anger on...not each other.
Just debate your point and stop the name calling.
No one on this forum is on trial and nothing we say here will impact world events in the least.
SH and Al-Quaida are the culprits we should focus our anger on...not each other.
Just debate your point and stop the name calling.
Mar 16th, 2003, 04:17 PM
#78
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I'm just an average American. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative, so please don't try to pin any labels on me. I don't like the idea of a war in Iraq because I know what war means. I served my time in the late 60s. I feel very deep concern for the American (and British) men and women who will be fighting this war. I also feel for the innocent Iraqis who are going to get caught up in the war.
However, I do not think there is any other choice now but war. I think that what the French government has been doing concerning Saddam is wrong, and has only made the problem worse. I believe that if the UN had presented a united position on Iraq, there might have been a chance that Iraq would have disarmed peacefully. Sadly, I believe that chance is now completely gone, and Saddam has only been emboldened. Since there is no longer a chance for a peaceful disarmament, it needs to be done forcefully. I say that because I absolutely believe that it is the right thing to eliminate Saddam, his government, and the weapons he controls, and war is now the only way to do it.
Notwithstanding what I believe, I have absolutely no negative feelings for the French people any more than I do for the anti-war protesters in this country. The freedom to disagree openly is one of the greatest freedoms we have. Instead of attacking each other for having different opinions, we should treasure that we have the right to do so.
However, I do not think there is any other choice now but war. I think that what the French government has been doing concerning Saddam is wrong, and has only made the problem worse. I believe that if the UN had presented a united position on Iraq, there might have been a chance that Iraq would have disarmed peacefully. Sadly, I believe that chance is now completely gone, and Saddam has only been emboldened. Since there is no longer a chance for a peaceful disarmament, it needs to be done forcefully. I say that because I absolutely believe that it is the right thing to eliminate Saddam, his government, and the weapons he controls, and war is now the only way to do it.
Notwithstanding what I believe, I have absolutely no negative feelings for the French people any more than I do for the anti-war protesters in this country. The freedom to disagree openly is one of the greatest freedoms we have. Instead of attacking each other for having different opinions, we should treasure that we have the right to do so.
Mar 16th, 2003, 07:04 PM
#80
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Sam -
"Also, what you failed to mention is that the ex CIA agent quoted hasn't been afilliated with that agency for 10 years...."
I'm not sure I see why that's relevant, but we did say "retired/former" CIA agent. The article clearly states that Ray McGovern is a "27-year CIA veteran who briefed top REAGAN administration security officials before retiring in 1990." He is part of a group of mostly retired CIA agents who are questioning the current administration. I imagine they left the agency at various times, but they are in contact with current agents re this issue.
And who was president 10 years ago? Ah yes, George Bush.
"Also, what you failed to mention is that the ex CIA agent quoted hasn't been afilliated with that agency for 10 years...."
I'm not sure I see why that's relevant, but we did say "retired/former" CIA agent. The article clearly states that Ray McGovern is a "27-year CIA veteran who briefed top REAGAN administration security officials before retiring in 1990." He is part of a group of mostly retired CIA agents who are questioning the current administration. I imagine they left the agency at various times, but they are in contact with current agents re this issue.
And who was president 10 years ago? Ah yes, George Bush.
