I am in the stages of preliminary planning for a summer 2009 trip to Germany. We are going to fly into and out of Frankfurt. From there, we will go to Hamburg. From Hamburg, it will be off to Berlin. There will be 4, maybe 5 of us. Which would be the most economical, renting a car, or taking the train?

Check train ticket prices here:

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

Also, be aware that 5 people can travel together all day on Sat or Sun on the regional (RE, RB, IRE) trains (not high-speed IC, ICE, EC, or D) for 35 Euros/day total.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a car while visiting Frankfurt, Hamburg, or Berlin, however.

I neglected to tell you the 35 Euro deal is called a "Happy Weekend" ticket - buy one at any DB ticket machine in Germany.

When you are looking at rental cars, make sure you look at one that is big enough. Only the largest rental cars are likely to have room for luggage for four people, let alone five, in the trunk.

Go to a rental site such as Kemwel (http://www.kemwel.com/), plug in the relevant information (days of rental, size of car, dates of rental, pick-up location--airport pickup usually adds a fee which is close to one day's rental but is not calculated in the original estimate of cost) and then try to find out how much the equivalent train tickets would cost. To that you need to add the cost of fuel, which never was inconsiderable in Europe but has dramatically increased against the dollar (25% to 30% increase in Europe with a similar drop in the dollar's value).

If you rent a car:

For 4 people, you need a station wagon (intermediate).

For 5 people, you need a 6-seater or 7-seater minivan.

For gas, you will pay around 150, maybe 170 Euros (driving from FRA to HH to B with some navigating in towns, but no sidetrips). In addition, you will have to pay for parking - count with 15 Euros to 25 Euros per day. (The Hamburg Renaissance charges 25 per day for parking.)

If going to big cities like hamburg and Berlin i would take the train - German towns are not car friendly and getting around town is best by S- or U-Bahn or trams, etc.

As for traveling around Germany you can do the www.bahn.de online discount route if you want to peg yourself into non-changeable trains far in advance

But the German Railpass is an option that should not be overlooked as you can hop practically any train anytime and walk up fares are very expensive.

A few trips like Frankfurt to Berlin and Berlin to Hamburg and then back to Frankfurt at full fare would porbably be more expensive than the pass.

Anyway for a lot on German trains and passes i always recommend www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - two sites that have much more than just the pass prices and an 'add to cart' button - the latter site you can download their free European Planning & Rail Guide that has a good chapter on Germany and German trains.

If going the online discount route or the regional passes then LarryinColorado is a font of info and TimS as well. Larry recently launched a web site about Germany trains - Larry i lost the site name - can you give it again please?

But IMO don't overlook the pass and its fully flexible option of hopping on any train any time - check www.bahn.de to see how pricey walkup fares can be.

Thanks for the info. I'm not quite sure I understand the booking system. The TGV train site in France seemed easier. Anyway, the regular trains posted take as long as 12 hours from Frankfurt to Hamburg. There were lots of stops. I tried to see the prices for the ICE, but when I plugged in dates in Oct. It showed that advanced booking was not available. Our trip will be in July, but I didn't think the trips and fares would be posted until after Dec. Is this right? Finally, do the rail passes offered on the Steves site offer travel on the ICE train. To me that would be the only way to go given the apparent long length of the other posted trains. Any ideas? Thanks again.

European train timetables are issued twice a year, in December and June. However, the times you see now for your routes are likely to be nearly identical next summer.

ICE trains make the run from Frankfurt to Hamburg in 3hr40min. The standard 2nd class fare is €101. Booked well in advance (up to 90 days allowed) you can get a Dauer-Spezial fare as low as €29. Those discount tickets are non-exchangeable and non-refundable.

A pass would be good on any train in the German Rail system, including ICEs.

You can book your train ticket 90 days in advance. If you are early enough, you can get the Sparpreis as TimS explained. www.bahn.de will show you the fare options very clearly.

To get an idea of schedules and fares, just enter a random date. Of course, you take the ICE and nothing else.

PalenQ, I've had one site, www.geocities.com/reise_deutschland for several years. It has the most information on Verkehr in the Länder, although possibly not quite current as I am no longer maintaining it.

I have recently acquired my own URL, www.germantravel-info.com. I like it better because I can write in HTML and have better control of the page layout than with GeoCities' page builder. I am in the process of putting on it everything from Reise_Deutschland, but not there yet.

L.

Thanks for the reply. If the timetables change in June, will I be able to book a Sparpreis only after the timetables change in June? Does everyone try to book the minute the timetables change? How difficult are the Sparpreis to get?

Also, do the ICE trains fill up fairly quickly? If we bought a pass would we be guarenteed a seat on the ICE?

It just appears to me that unless you travel on the ICE, going to the areas we wish to travel, the other trains would just take too long. From what I could tell from the schedule, 12 hours from Frankfurt to Hamburg is way too long. Even w/ delays, we could surely make the 238 miles in less than 12 hours...

What do you guys think?

On the bahn.de site a train that requires a reservation is indicated by a red circle with a "R" in it. Seat reservations are optional on most, if not all, ICE trains. Either with a ticket or a pass you can take your chances on finding an empty seat. Or you can pay a few euros for a seat reservation.

I don't think that you'll have to wait until the June timetables are issued to try to get a discount fare, but I don't know for sure. Since new timetables will be issued in December, you could do a dummy booking in late November for travel in February. If it works then, it should work in April or May for travel in July or August.

I think the only ICEs that actually <u>require</u> reservations are the ICE-Flyers. In most cases the red circle R, such as on the 8:58 ICE out of Frankfurt for Hamburg, means a reservation is recommended.

On the only ICE I have ever been on that was fully occupied, less than half the seats were reserved. Had I made a reservation when I arrived at the station, a few minutes before boarding, I could have had a seat. Reservation are &euro;4 per person. If that gives you piece of mind, it's a small price. BTW, I rode that same ICE a few years later, and did not reserve a seat. I was one of only three people in the car that day.

If you are not using miles for your flight then consider flying American. They have a partnership with German rail, Deutsche Bahn, that can make it much less expensive to get around Germany. One time I flew into FRA and took the train (ICE) to Munich for the beginning of my trip, and then for my return to the US I started from Kassel, again on a high speed train. The train sections were included in my AA itinerary and the ticket cost, unbelievably, only about $5 US more than it would have for just the flight to FRA. I just checked and the same deal appears to be in effect, although I don't know if you can book it this far in advance. I could not believe it was the same price when I did it the first time; I kept waiting for someone to approach me asking for more money!

It was very smooth. I also was more relaxed since everything was on one itinerary, because I was fairly confident that AA would take care of me if my train was late (and it was almost 2 hours late returning to FRA).

(The deal is almost as good for travel with AA in France.)

At any rate, if you can take advantage of this deal you might not need a rail pass or a car.

Kathy

We are using miles for the flight. Is this option not available if you use miles?

Hi Elaine123,

I haven't tried booking it with miles. I would certainly call your airline and find out.

Here is one link with more information about what airlines participate.

http://www.bahn.de/international/vie...odeshare.shtml

When Frankfurt is not a destination but a mere point of entry to get to Hamburg (and then Berlin), you could also fly open jaw (US-Hamburg, Berlin-US).

&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks for the reply. If the timetables change in June, will I be able to book a Sparpreis only after the timetables change in June? Does everyone try to book the minute the timetables change? How difficult are the Sparpreis to get?

Also, do the ICE trains fill up fairly quickly? If we bought a pass would we be guarenteed a seat on the ICE?

It just appears to me that unless you travel on the ICE, going to the areas we wish to travel, the other trains would just take too long. From what I could tell from the schedule, 12 hours from Frankfurt to Hamburg is way too long. Even w/ delays, we could surely make the 238 miles in less than 12 hours...&gt;&gt;&gt;

Elaine, relax.

Riding a train is as simple as riding an elevator.

- Go on the bahn website 90 days or 80 days or 70 days before your trip starts. They have a contingent of Sparpreis tickets, but they do not sell out that rapidly.

- Yes, make a reservation for small money, then you have your peace of mind. It is not necessary (you might find places in the restaurant car).

- 12 hours from Frankfurt to Hamburg is ridiculous. You probably made a mistake on the website (certainly clicking a wrong box). Forget it. The train ride takes 3:37 nonstop. Period.