5alive

Suec, I think you are going about this right. People are saying you can't "expect" a refund. I don't think it hurts to ask, so long as you are pleasant about it.

And heti, I do empathize with small businesses. My cousin just had her restaurant and bar closed by governor's order. What now? Will she lose her lease?

The airlines, I'm mixed on. I have two kids in college and from the parent chat boards, it really appeared that flights spiked in price once the respective schools announced they were going online. Some of the other parents were trying to help but there were a few routings that were quite high--$400+ one-way from Nashville to Charlotte, was one example I recalled.

On the flip side, some airlines were giving free bags or at least a free second bag to college students, or waived the overweight bag charges. Those are the kind of things that will cause you to fly that airline again. And that is also part of the equation: If you manage to be standing at the end, will your customers be loyal?

Traveler_Nick

Only if you have the best price or whatever criteria that customer is going to use.

Worse there is already minimal competition in many markets. If airlines fail the remaining will concentrate on the most profitable routes. Even if that means abandoning their own older routes.

suze

No, I would not expect a refund from a non-refundable hotel room booking. Hotels are struggling as it is going forward. They can't give everyone their money back. And yes right now everyone does have a reason.

bvlenci

Many Italians are renouncing their right to a refund for missed concerts, plays, and museums exhibits, to help these struggling institutions survive the financial loss they're experiencing.

Songdoc

I was surprised to receive an email from the head of Hotwire, stating that they are working with their partners to provide refunds for "non-refundable" Hotwire rate hotels. Here's ask excerpt:

We’ve been working closely with our hotel, car, and airline partners to allow cancellations for bookings that are normally non-cancelable, and have received great support from our industry partners. Our engineering team has also worked around the clock to develop a new tool that allows for simple self-cancellations of our Hot Rate Hotel and Car bookings. For those with bookings eligible for cancellation—even if you’ve already sent us an email or initiated a chat conversation previously—we encourage you to now use our form to request a refund. This is the fastest way to get assistance with your reservation.

To submit a cancellation request using our self-service tool, please visit
https://www.hotwire.com/request-cancellation.

As we roll out changes designed to support our most urgent customer needs and stay up to date on the developing policies of our airline, hotel and car partners, we will continue to notify you of important updates via email. Our Coronavirus FAQ page and social channels are also being routinely updated (and are available as resources 24/7).

In Hotwire’s 20 year history—and certainly my 19 years of working in the travel industry—this is the most complex challenge we have faced. Even still, I am incredibly optimistic and hopeful for the future of travel. At Hotwire, our teams will use the changes we make today to allow all our customers to travel more confidently in the future, and whenever you are ready to travel again, please know that we are here for you.

Envierges

"Many Italians are renouncing their right to a refund for missed concerts, plays, and museums exhibits, to help these struggling institutions survive the financial loss they're experiencing."

Another example of Italian generosity.

When I cancelled my expensive Air France business class flight I certainly didn't expect to get any money back. I figured that losing this money was cheaper than a hospital stay in France without insurance. Maybe I'll get some tax money back, maybe not. I hope that Air France is still in existence when this clears. Some say August. Some say two years. Novel virus means we know zip.

Envierges

"Surely holiday companies like airlines and hotels must give a refund if services were not used"

By what logic, if these services were clearly marked non refundable? The taxes I'd like back are not services.

kerouac

I had hotel reservations at three different Accor properties in three different countries. One of them is refunding me and the other two are giving me a credit valid until December 31st.

StCirq

Non-refundable = non-refundable. You signed a contract, probably opting for a non-refundable option because it was cheaper. Ask politely for a deferral of dates, but don't expect a refund. Business owners are going to be in worse shape than the average reservation holder.

MmePerdu

It's occurred to me that the non-refundable stipulation might apply only for the buyer's actions. I realize the times are unusual but what if, for instance, when a room becomes unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances like plumbing repairs? Would they not be obliged to give the buyer a refund? Maybe someone's already discussed this but non-refundable seems to me to be a restriction on the buyer, not to protect the seller if the seller cannot provide what they've sold. When those who've bought a room aren't allowed into the country might not a refund be in order? I'd be interested in just how those contracts are written.

bilboburgler

most contracts have a "force majeure" section, WE just walked into it, suck it up.

Dukey1

Why do people usually book "nonrefundable" accommodations? I can think of at least one reason.

Traveler_Nick

You not being allowed into the country is going to be your problem.

OTOH if it's like Spain that is ordering the closure of all hotels then you'd be right to want/demand a refund.

On the third hand. The problem is many of these businesses won't have the money to refund you. That's not just the small like B&Bs. Many large airlines seem to be only offering rebookings when legally they should be handing out refunds.

Odin

There isn't always a choice between refundable and non refundable accommodation. I booked accommodation in the Caribbean for an upcoming trip quite some time ago. The deposit was paid and a couple of weeks before arrival I paid the balance at which point the whole thing became non refundable. Up to that point, I could have cancelled and got my deposit back. Of course I am not going and the accommodation provider volunteered a refund without me asking for one.

I have the T&Cs on the website which I read & clearly accepted, that forms a contract. I have never seen a paper contract that had to be signed, at least not for years and not for a personal hotel booking (apartment rentals sometimes have a proper contract), in the old days you might have got one via email which you printed, signed and sent back to the hotel by fax. I have travel insurance so whatever was not refunded could be claimed for.

Dukey1

How much did those "large" airlines take in in additional fees last year alone? That would be for baggage checking, paid seats, etc. BILLIONS (literally) so if they don't have money that's on them.

StCirq

I have no pity for the airlines. And yes, "force majeure" comes into play in most accommodation contracts. But some outfits, Booking.com comes to mind, are relaxing their non-cancelation policies in the past few days, so it pays to keep in touch with them. Small businesses, like B&Bs and some tour guide companies, I would imagine will have a harder time refunding the cash.

whitehall

We have a trip booked late April into May to France/Corsica. Although we will not, even if we are allowed, take the trip, the airlines, and some hotels, of course, want you to re-book. I believe, at least in the US, non-refundable or not, if the airline cancels a flight or a hotel closes down, for whatever reason, you are due a refund. Sometimes, an airline might require you to accept a flight within a reasonable period. United Airlines has been re-defining what that period is and has received lots of pushback. Their current policy, revised several times in a week, on refunds for flights THEY cancel is to give you a flight credit for a year and if you don’t use it, you will get your refund then. When this all clears, I suspect there will be some class action suits, but those take time. And, as has been pointed out, if the company holding the money does not have enough cash, there may be little recourse.

We have cancelled things where we can get money back (Auto Europe). We have also cancelled hotels that have not collected a deposit to give them an early courtesy. But this trip, for us, involves five separate airlines, all “non-refundable” and several airbnbs, all with 50% penalties for cancellations between now and late April.

All the airlines will provide credits if we cancel now, but we are hoping to get some refunds (in addition to tax refunds that we can also get now), maybe delayed, if we wait until THEY cancel. With respect to airbnb, so far, they are refunding "non-refundable" payments right now through mid-April. There is a good chance that this policy will be extended.

And, as Mme Perdu suggests, as a former hotelier, whose reservations were all non-refundable within 10 days of a stay, if we could not provide, for any reason, the room booked by a guest, we were on the hook for full refunds.

If the airline and hotels operate, you (and me) are out of luck as to refunds. I liken that to a hurricane threat that caused some of our guests to cancel, but we stayed open. We ticked off a few people, but we did not provide refunds.

5alive

This is an interesting thought. Who will be in better shape? It assumes we know the characteristics of the average reservation holder. Do we know their income, their job security?

What if the reservation holder is himself a small business owner who is losing money in his own business? I'll give you one. Restaurants just backed out of big wine orders from an Oregon winery I know of. Right now you can go get a case for $24-- $2 a bottle. That winery owner or his employees (perhaps now laid off) could be the traveler.

​​​​What if the reservation holder works in an industry that is taking a big hit? That hotel reservation holder even could be a flight attendant, taking her family on vacation. So now she has been laid off. Didn't she have an agreement with her employer? Can she make United honor it?

​​​​​What if the reservation holder is someone who lives frugally to travel, but has zero nest egg? Any set back, like the hospital bill for coronavirus, will have them destitute.

​​​​​​​​​​​The question I'm really asking here is not who is right. We probably aren't going to agree on that.

The question is, what is going to happen to all of these people?

As all of these cards keep falling, do we have a Depression as big as the 1930s?







​​​​​​

Traveler_Nick

It depends on what the governments do. What we need is for governments to step up and be the buyers/spenders of last resort.

Europe is likely going into a far worse depression than the 30s. The Italian drop in GDP after the financial crisis was worse than that of the 30s. This current situation is going to make that look positive. There are analysis circulating claiming a 30% annualized drop in the Italian economy for Q2. I don't even know if that includes the likely deflation we will see. Much of the rest of Europe won't be much better off.

Worse this isn't the sort of stuff that bounces back. Imagine if the shops are closed until June. All the spring clothing you might have bought is put off until next year. Services you skipped aren't doubled up on. Nobody is getting three haircuts to make up for the ones they missed.

Worse Europe is led by a group of hooverite ideologues. People who destroyed Greece to prove a point. That have been imposing massive unworkable internal devaluations to prove a point. Who will likely wait until it's far too late to do anything and then do the wrong thing.

The only positive is this train wreck might hit everybody so hard that somebody wakes up. Personally doubt it.

bilboburgler

Bavaria just went into lockdown, that might wake them up.