ilisa

Mark, most parents would probably welcome some help. However, it all depends how you want to assist. If you are willing to play or distract the child, that's one thing. If you think you can yell back at the kid, that's another (I've heard that suggested before - I'm not saying that's what you want to do). You have to understand that there are times when the screaming has nothing to do with misbehaving, especially with infants, and you need to know how to act accordingly.

mark

Response to ilisa: it isn't about me knowing how to act accordingly - it is about YOU quieting your child. You choose to be a parent - not me. If you're interested in compensating me for having to endure your screaming child - might a suggest a nice bottle of champagne sent to my hotel room, and all the other people your child has cause distress. Understand - your child is your problem, not mine. Sorry if I sound like the witch from Hansel and Gretel - but it always amazes me how parents think that the world has to tolerate their children. As my mother sometime said to me: "if you don't stop I'll give you something to cry about." A little bit of intimidation and light corporal punishment can work wonders and I didn't turn out to be a serial killer or end up in mental hospital.

zeus

David, Marija, Buyer, zzz, Also and anyone else on about the horrid children they've had to endure. I invite you to go to the other post and vent, and leave these people to discuss what they came here to discuss. We know what you think. We know where you stand. But if you can't bear to let the word "children" or "babies" go by without sounding off, then do it elsewhere.

rand

I have watched people try to push small colapsable stollers on cobblestones. It doesn't work. Can you buy strollers with big wheels that don't fall in the cracks? Saw many no stroller signs on shops and diners. There were babies and toddlers on both flights this year and I never saw/heard one of them between take-off and landing. That is 11 hours each way. Now that lady who paced continuously and always waited until the food carts were in the aisles before wanting to pee was a different story. The stewardesses were about to open the hatch and throw her out.

mark

I'm more tolerant of a distressed child than I am a nicotine addicted adult who foolishly tries to smoke in the lavortory or as rand says, paces the aisle. Once again, it boils down to being aware of the effect you (or your children) has upon the people around you. Bottom line - no one has the right to disturb anyone else.

anon

Hey Mark, lighten up. Babies are part of life, period. Get over it. I don't have kids but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to make a baby behave all time. Sometimes people HAVE to travel with kids. Don't expect the rest of the world to accommodate you when babies/kids are a fact of life. Here's an idea: if a kid is really pissing you off, tell the parents, the flight attendants, whoever. I don't like being next to a screaming baby, I hate it, but it's not like the baby is aware of you or that it's irritating you.

ilisa

Goodness, Mark, aren't we uptight? There is a difference between a screaming toddler and a screaming baby. A baby cries to communicate. We would all like the prodigal child who can speak clearly from birth. When a baby cries, it means there is something wrong. Sometimes it can be easily rectified (food, diaper change). Sometimes it is not so easy to determine (gas, ear pain). Lighten up. A crying baby is not misbehaving and is not crying spcifically to piss you off. You were a baby once.

abcd

<BR>Again it comes down to crying babies and misbehaving children. <BR>Stop telling us to lighten up and deal with it. <BR>A baby cries for a reason, so take care of the reason and the crying stops. <BR>A misbehaving child is a completely other matter. Parents have to control their kids, period. Running around restaurants (The busy kitchen story is a case in point mother yelling at waiter instead of her kid), places of worship, and airplanes. Parents cannot all of a sudden become deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to their child. Deal with them, not the rest of the wprld that would like to dine in peace, worship in peace, and even yes, fly in peace. I have been on flights were you did not even know there were kids on board. Then there's the flight where one misbehaving 6 or 7 year old is so bad that I want to kill this kid but alas no Mommy or Daddy in sight. Either sleeping or absorbed in a magazine or saying "Junior I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO THAT I AM COUNTING TO THREE YOU WON'T GET _____ IF YOU DON'T STOP. <BR>Repeat as many times as necessary but only so the person sitting next to you can hear you. PLEEEEEEEEEASE! <BR>

Lorsque

Here's a test: <BR> <BR>You walk into the waiting area around an airport departure gate. You see a couple of Those waiting for the flight. "Ohmigod," you think, "we're going to have some of Those on board. Oh, brother, it's going to be awful. They're going to ruin the flight for us. They're sure to bother everyone, sure to be a problem. I sure hope they don't sit anywhere near me. I hate them. I hate them. They shouldn't be allowed to travel. They should have their own facilities. They should be excluded from anywhere I go. I'm going to tell someone, right to their face, if I have to. Boy, they better not mess with me!" <BR> <BR>Now, the test is -- if you EVER think that about anyone, you are prejudiced. You have an instant, negative, rejecting opinion before anything has happened. That is the essence of bigotry. You could say "They" are fat, young, handicapped, African-American, Latino, or come from Texas. It's the same. <BR> <BR>The only difference here is that the "Those" in question are handicapped by as yet incomplete socialization and, in many cases, the inability to talk or meet their own physical needs -- therefore they are in the custodial care of someone else. <BR> <BR>All this "don't take your kids anywhere near me" stuff is defined by the readiness to be annoyed and upset, before there is any reason to be. Beyond the basic respect owed to people and children -- which seems to be at a historical low just now -- never mind the compassion merited by those rearing the people who will manage things when we are in the rest homes -- there's the simple question of credibility. What is the basis of this angry prejudice that will ignore well-behaved children and parents doing their best to acclimate children to the adult world, and declare moral war on anyone who even considers traveling with their families? <BR> <BR>I'm sure the response to this will be something on the order of "the well-behaved child doesn't exist," "parents nowadays are incompetent," "everytime I travel, kids make it awful," etc. etc. What this amounts to is a kind of emotional profiling, and the mindset behind it is a fixed state of spoiling for a fight. <BR> <BR>I suspect that as unpleasant as you make it for those like Jeff who post with a genuine desire for advice, your own travel must be that much more unpleasant simply because the slightest peep out of any child is going to send you into a paroxysm of anger. And the second peep will have you ready to throw anvils at parent and child. The only other time I've observed so entrenched a response is among squabbling siblings in the back seat of a car, when saying "just ignore him" results in escalation of hostilities.

anon

Mark, I think this statement is a bit over the top: no one has the right to disturb anyone else. When you're in a public place, you're in a PUBLIC place. The world does not revolve around you or keeping you happy. Kids sometimes irritate me, too, but they and their parents have as much right to be in that restaurant or wherever as I do. <BR>abcd, I bet most parents would love to get their babies to stop crying. You make it sound like they are intentionally not giving the baby what it needs. C'mon, it isn't that simple. <BR>Granted, some parents do a better job that others. Some parents don't seem to care and are the worst offenders. But the truth is, those are the ones that don't care what you think, either, so you're wasting your time griping.

abcd

Anon: <BR>If you read my post you will see that I am not griping about crying babies. Babies usually stop crying when their discomfort is taken care of. <BR>My Gripe as you put it is misbehaving kids. I am sure your parents did not let you misbehave in public, mine sure didn't. <BR>What has happened to our generation? <BR>

anon

First, I'm not a parent. I know what you mean about misbehaving kids, really, and they irritate me a lot, too, although as I've said before, I think they (and the parents) have the same rights to be anywhere as I do. Rather than get really irate about what is beyond my control, I try to be compassionate or at least not let it bother me to the point of ruining my trip. <BR>Now for controversial remarks. I know parents who think they have to let their kids do what they want so they can develop their true personalities (I swear). They've also said that children should do what they want because they won't have that freedom when they grow up. And finally, that if they tell the kid 'no' all the time, the kid will grow up with no self esteem or confidence. A relative of mine lets his daughter make all the decisions regarding their activities. If she doesn't want to go, they don't go. If she wants to go, they expect the whole family to tag along so the child can have an enriching family experience. Whatever. Everyone has a different idea of parenting and we can't change that. <BR>Try to have a little compassion. Maybe the parents are in too deep and really can't control their kids. Maybe they slept on the plane because they were dead tired. Who knows. It's probably at least a little difficult to know exactly what your kid(s) are doing at every moment. Some kids are naturally better behaved (you and me, of course) than others (my brother).

mark

Oopps - I made a mistake in semantics - I meant to say distressed baby not child. I am fully aware of the difference between a child and a baby. As for no one having the right to disturb anyone - I live in NYC proper, lack of total control over one's environment is a given here - either learn to deal with it or go crazy. However, at 6 am in the morning when my next door neighbor starts playing techno music - I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I say I have the right to some peace and quiet at appropraite times. The same applies to a restaurant, a theater, on a plane, etc, etc, etc (and I'm not talking about techno music). I can't help but feel that the same issues we're discussing are very similar to smokers vs non-smokers - my rights vs your rights. Gees - the parents here complain how uptight we "children haters" are yet you all seem to guilty of the same supposed over reaction (according to my perception). I remember my first trip to Paris - a mother and child next to me who had been traveling from the West Coast (already 7 hours plus getting from LaGaurdia to JFK plus layover plus the 7 hours to Paris...) - the kid was visibly drained and for the first 45 minutes was cranky (understandably so). He finally went to sleep. Did I want to murder the kid? Of course not - I wanted throttle the mother for pushing the kid so hard. I found out during the flight that she was on her way to Germany so her parents could see their grandchild - how many more layovers for the kid? I bet most of the anti-child posters here if pressed would probably say "kill" the parent not the misbehaving child. Why? As other posters have stated - bad parenting. Once again - you choose to pro-create, your child is your responsibilty - your charge. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of coordination and responsiblity that parents go through when traveling with children - I am more than empathetic - however as is obvious from other posters, other travelers have had their trips spoiled by children and children-centric parents. I'm sure this will get a few pro-creating flamers - flame away...

nancy

O.K. <BR>My self-control finally wore away. <BR>I have tried to develop the control to stay away from postings like this, because generally one learns nothing from them ,*except* how irritating others find it to be around children on vacation and plane flights. <BR>But, being human , curious and the parent of two children, I had to peek at this finally. <BR> <BR>We ,personally, did not travel when our children were very small. Then when we did, it was by car, or only to Florida via plane to visit grandparents. <BR>Our vacations were limited to child friendly locations, and child friendly restuarants. <BR>(We will be making our first europe trip this summer, children 10 and 13.) <BR>*But* that was our choice,and was what was right for us. and doesn't mean that people who take their babies, toddlers,young children on long trips to faraway places are wrong, or bad. <BR> <BR>Yes, children do have a tendency to act in ways that are not always what "grown-ups" consider appropriate.And it can be **very** irritating to be around! <BR> <BR>Yes, parents do not always (especially in this day and age) deal with their "misbehaving" children in appropriate or considerate ways. <BR>And there are some parents who are totally disrespectful of other travelers. <BR> <BR>But, it seems that we as a culture have become very intolerant (and selfish) of *anything* which we feels gets in the way of our *own* individual and personal enjoyment. <BR>Lorsque and Anon, <BR>I thought your posts were wonderful and very well thought out. <BR> <BR>Mark, <BR>The woman who was traveling to Germany with her young child, to visit with the grandparents... was there something wrong with that? <BR>Maybe this was the very first time that the grandparents were meeting their grandchild. <BR>Maybe the grandparents were too infirm to travel to the states? <BR>Maybe it wwas just what she felt like doing! and yes, it was probably horrible for the child, but I do not think this child was permanently traumatized by the trip. <BR>And your statement that people have had their vacations "spoiled" because of children (and inconsiderate) parents....a whole vacation *spoiled*?? due to some annoyances? <BR>Moments in time ruining a whole vacation? <BR> <BR>And yes, most people who procreate do *choose* to procreate, and the resulting children *are* their responsibility. <BR>So maybe Social Security is overdue for reform. <BR>Each succesive generations' SS taxes going only to those people who gave birth to them. <BR>That would solve some of the dilemna about there maybe not being enough money to provide for everyone retirement(in the future). <BR>nancy <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

deepa

I think the real 'babies' here are those who expect everything to be perfect. Babies/children are bound to be where ever you go.And yes, some are irritating, some angels, either of these may or may not be due to the parents doing.Beleive me, parents don't love to hear their kids screaming or breaking things.Most parents try thier best to avoid unpleasant situations. Recently, we spent a packet flying business class so that the baby would be more comfortable, my husband and I hardly ate anything on the flight since all the time was spent in trying to soothe the baby and walking her. Sometimes, try sympathising with the parents.Why not try viewing this as any other 'unpleasant' situation like a a bad play, delayed flights,traffic jams,bad restaurant experience - all these are also due to others' faults.

Holly

Nancy: I hope your idea for social security reform is a joke. But in the event that it is not, I will just say that you are WAY off base. We (non-procreators and procreators all) have been paying into the social security system since we were teenagers, and will damn well be entitled to that money (if it's still there) when we retire. And in my opinion, the non-procreators ought to be given a tax break NOW for not taxing the system further by having children!

childlesschildlover

I'm not among the class whose opinions are being solicited. Nevertheless I have one. Traveling with babies and very young children can be hazardous. They can catch diseases to which their mothers were never exposed, i.e. ones for which they did not acquire their mother's immunity while she was carrying them, and to which they did not acquire immunity during their short lives. It's not for nothing that elderly Chinese ladies are horrified when they see their granddaughters and nieces taking their babies out in public. The world is full of germs that most older children and adults can resist quite well, but a baby can't unless it has its mother's immunity to the specific disease, which is unlikely in the case of "foreign" diseases.

Maggie

Jeff: I'm wondering why, now that you are a parent, your focus continues to be on your world travels rather than your six-month old. I suspect "troll" here, too. Or, perhaps you are determined that this non-person will not disrupt your travel plans. My husband and I raised four children. While they were at home, we planned age appropriate activities for the children and did things as a family, on very rare occasions getting away for a few days by ourselves while the kids (but not until the youngest was in school) visited with their grandparents or cousins, aunts and uncles. The sentiment on this board is not "anti-child traveler", but rather pro responsible parenting. A responsible parent does not take children to places where children may disrupt others and/or the children will be miserable. It is positively cruel to take children to places where they simply are not old enough to behave appropriately (restaurants, museums, churches, etc.). Any child on the planet would rather be elsewhere than in an cramped jet for hours on end, in a strange hotel room, eating strange food, going to one strange place after another, surrounded by strange people speaking strange languages. The ideal life of a one and a half year old includes sleeping in his (or her) own comfy bed in familiar surroundings with their own toys. Small children thrive on daily rituals and consistency. Imagine you're one and a half being strapped into a stoller and wheeled hour after hour through a museum where you can not run free in those marvelous miles and miles of hallways, climb all over priceless statues, climb up and down those amazing staircases, listen to the amazing echoes of the your voice, reach out and touch objects which arouse your curiosity. Instead, you must BE QUIET, BE STILL, and just ENDURE. Otherwise, you're admonished for not being "good". I'm sure everyone will agree that parents' attempts to discipline, quiet, and entertain their children in public places is far more annoying than the behavior of the children. Such a shame you won't be taking your child to parks and playgrounds and playgroups and zoos and childrens museums (where English is spoken). You do not need to learn from the experiences of others. Traveling in Europe with a toddler is absolutely no different than going to the same types of places where you live. The best places to go with children are places that they will enjoy and that will enrich their lives (as opposed to yours).

Holly

Maggie: Well put. Others: Please pay attention to Maggie.

ilisa

Childlesschildlover, can you please tell me what diseases my daughter has caught by travelling and being out in public? Neither I nor my pediatrician are aware of any.