Our gang of four will be visiting Paris for eight days in October, all of us for the first time. Self, husband, and (male) friend are all in our late 50?s. Mom is ageless but, let?s face it, old enough to be my mother. Per Mom?s request, we?re trying to pack a lot in to this trip because she probably will never go there again. Right now, she is very healthy and has lots more energy than the rest of us. We?ve taken vacations together before and have found that what works best for us is to schedule a lot and then adjust the schedule as the mood strikes us on the spot. Our plan so far (for your feedback):

We arrive on Friday morning, October 1st. We will take the Roissy Bus from the airport because the drop-off is right next to our hotel, Le Grande Intercontinental, across from the Opera Garnier. We got an extremely good deal on the hotel and are very excited about staying someplace with such historical significance and we also feel that the location is great for what we want to do.

After check-in (or at least luggage drop-off), we plan to stroll down to Place Vendome, check out Hemingway?s Bar at the Ritz, and find some sidewalk café for lunch. In the afternoon, we will take the Paris Panoramic tour from Paris Visions which includes: a two-hour bus tour, a one-hour river cruise, and the elevator up to the second level of the Eiffel Tower.

For meals, we are afraid that our tastes are probably not sophisticated enough to appreciate a very expensive gourmet meal (although we might take the plunge one night, just for the experience.) Generally, we would like to eat in local bistros with ambience and a tolerance for my tourist-level-French. As a back-up, we can fall back on the brasseries in the Flo Group (Bofinger, Brasserie Flo, Julien, La Coupole, Le Vaudeville, Brasserie Balzar) or the Chez Clements. Mom is not a fan of Fancy French Food, so we?re looking for food that is a little more Country French as a compromise.

Saturday morning, we plan an early-morning stroll to the Madeleine and then a taxi to Musee Marmottan to see the Monets. Then another taxi to Gare St. Lazare for the train to Vernon and our visits to Giverny. The gentlemen will, hopefully, take the afternoon tour of Giverny from Mike?s Bike Tours. Mom and I will take the same train but just visit Monet?s house and garden. We can then take an earlier afternoon train back to Paris to allow some time at Au Printemps and Galleries Lafayette. Mom is a shopper!

Sunday, we plan to spend all day on a do-it-yourself tour of Versailles, including the outlying sights by the Trianons. That evening, the gentlemen will go on a bike tour of Paris by Night from Mike?s Bike Tours which includes a river cruise with free wine. Mom and I will take a taxi to Casino Barrière d'Enghien-les-Bains. Mom is also a gambler!

Monday morning we start using our Museum Passes and our Carte Orange passes. Our first stop will be at the Louvre. I found some great software that is a virtual tour so we have selected 30 specific pieces that we want to see and have been able to map out the most efficient way to see them, allowing about five hours. We hope to make it back to the Opera Garnier for the 3:00 English-speaking tour. After the tour, we want to stop by Harry?s Bar (some of us are Hemingway fans) for a cocktail and an early light supper. In the evening, we hope to get tickets to whatever ballet is at the Opera Garnier.

Tuesday morning, the gentlemen would like to take the Segway Tour of Paris, also from Mike?s Bike Tours. Mom and I plan on attending a fashion show in the morning and then having lunch together before she spends the afternoon on her Chic Paris Shopping Tour. While Mom is shopping with a guide, I?ll be heading to the Army Museum at Invalides. The gentlemen can meet me there when they?re done riding their new toys. I especially want to see the WWII exhibit.

One of these remaining nights (Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday) we would also like to see the show (but not have the dinner) at the Moulin Rouge. We?ll decide what night we feel like making it a late night once we?re in Paris.

Wednesday morning it?s back to the Art Museums. We?ll start at Musee Rodin, take Mom to see Napolean?s tomb, then spend the afternoon at the Musee d?Orsay. We especially want to see the model of the Opera Garnier and the view from the second floor.

On Thursday, we?re going to get two-day passes for the L?Open Bus. We?ll spend the morning at Ile de la Cite, taking in Ste Chapelle, the Conciergerie, and Notre Dame. After using the guided tour on the bus to rest up, we?ll spend the afternoon wandering around Montmarte. We especially want to see Sacre Couer.

Friday morning, we can visit the left bank and, after lunch at Bofingers, spend a little time at Musee Carnavalet and Musee Picasso. On our last night, we want to take a sunset cruise on the Seine, followed by a Farewell-to-Paris dinner somewhere special (possibly revisiting whatever was our favorite restaurant.)

Saturday morning, we?ll check-out and catch one of the high-speed trains to Geneva. This is just the beginning of our trip. We also plan two nights in Geneva (including a day-trip) to the Alps, the scenic train from Geneva to Venice (for more Alps-viewing) and then a night at the Hotel Bellini in Venice. On Tuesday, October 12th, we will board Celebrity?s Millenium for a 12-night Mediterranean cruise: Venice, Dubrovnik, Athens, Santorini, Naples, Rome, Florence, Nice, and Barcelona. We finish with two nights in Barcelona before returning home for a good long rest.

We?re including a lot but our theory is that this will probably be our only chance for the four of us to take this trip together! We?ve all agreed that we want to see and do as much as possible and experience has taught us that we really do enjoy a vacation where we?re trying to do it all. So given that caveat, I would really appreciate any feedback that you-all can give us.

Thanks,
Cher

Sounds like a really good plan. Mom sounds energetic, too! I like the combination of the Marmottan and Giverny but Saturday seems much too full otherwise. Perhaps you can find another day to fit in some shopping. And make sure you have left enouth time to really enjoy Paris - the walks, the cafes, the parks, etc.

It seems like you've done a lot of research and planning and have a pretty good idea what you are doing and how.

As for the dining, you didn't focus on this, but there's no reason to focus on going to only those brasseries in the Flo group. They are spread all over and why not just try something different instead of only going to one kind of restaurant. The Chez Clement's are a good idea for you, a nice atmosphere, good value, and variety of things on the menu. Since you are there 8 days and your mother doesn't care for fancy French food that much, you might consider going to something other than a French cuisine restaurant, at least once. Paris has lots of other good restaurants. ONe of the best Italian, for course, is in Montparnasse (very near La Coupole), the Auberge de Venise. Or you could pick out a nice seafood restaurant (if she likes that).

I've been trying to figure out a way to put this, but can't think of anything other than -- your Saturday schedule sounds insane to me. YOu are going to walk to the Madeleine, tour the Marmottan museum, then tour Giverny (taking train and everything on your own) and come back and go shopping, all the same day? I just think you should check out the train schedule, as I don't think that's very feasible. There are only a few trains a day at a reasonable time to come back from Giverny, and only a few going. If you can even get there after touring the Marmottan (which would be tight as I think the train is around noon), you won't get back in early afternoon.

Regarding our Monet Day.

The Madeleine is only a 1/3 mile walk from our hotel. We are assuming that we will be getting up a little early that morning (after a good night's sleep) and a short walk will be refreshing. We can easily catch a cab from there to Marmottan. If we get up late, we'll simply save it for another morning.

The goal is to be at Marmottan when it opens at 10:00. We're only going to see the Monet exhibit in the basement, and only some of the paintings at that (about a dozen pre-selected). Even allowing 15 minutes to walk to the taxi stand at La Muette, we should still have over an hour for our Monet fix.

The express train for Vernon leaves Gare St. Lazare at 12:04 and arrives in Vernon at 12:48. To save time, we'll take a cab from there to Giverny. That will allow us plenty of time to view the house and gardens before catching a pre-arranged cab for the 2:57 train back to Paris.

We've noticed that the standard bus tours only allow about two hours at Monet's home and gardens and we will actually be there before the tour buses arrive which should make our tour go even smoother.

The train returns to Paris at 3:44 and Gare St. Lazare is just a few minutes from the department stores on Boulevard Haussmann.

Galeries Lafayette closes at 6:45 and Au Printemps at 7:00. This gives Mom plenty of time to make a serious dent in her credit card. We should be wrapping up (probably literally) just about the time that Chuck and Tom get back from their bike ride.

See ... possibly not as insane as you thought.

Cher

Cher - My first thought on reading your post was "My god! They'll be dead by the 3rd day!" If you have that kind of energy, then good for you. I usually don't do much on arrival day, maybe one thing, and try to be in bed by 8:30 PM so that I can get up early the next morning (still not easy). Remember, jet-lag reigns those first days.

I also didn't notice the Arc D'Triomphe on your list. It seems like a must-see for a first/only timer -- along with a brief stroll down the Champs Elysee.

I'm still confused about eating in Paris but I think the kind of food your mother wants might be found at bistros. It's very easy to fall in the trap of eating at sidewalk cafes and tourist-trap restaurants when on-the-go. I would recommend you do some detailed research (you are obviously a skilled researcher) on bistros in the neighborhood of your hotel.

Anyway, if you survive this trip it will be a memorable one!

Rob

Hi
Regarding the Giverny logistics:

You're going to arrive in Vernon at 12:48, and then take a return train from there at 2:57? Let's assume the trains and taxis are exactly on time and you go from Vernon to Giverny in 15 minutes each way. You'll have about an hour and 20 or 25 minutes at most at Giverny if you cut it fine, not nearly enough time even if there aren't any crowds, and there are almost always crowds. If you need to rush that much, than I'd rethink going.

I don't understand the idea of possibly compromising with country French food rather than "Fancy" French food. If Mom is a picky eater, country French food can often have earthy or "peasant" ingredients like pork parts or organ meats or such.

I know Sacre Coeur is a popular site, and the view from there is nice, but I would never put it on my must-see list if time is short. There are so many other churches and sites that imo offer good views, more memorable interiors, longer histories, etc.

The Opera tour is extremely worthwhile, but I would suggest stopping in and verifing the time. Le Grand Cafe, just off the Place de l'Opera on Capucines, is a very nice restaurant. Our favorite happens to be Le Vaudeville, with our staying right up the street.

October is not the best month for the gardens at Giverney, and I would personally place this pretty far down the list.

I have been to Giverny in October and think it is more beautiful than in Spring. In my opinion it is a full day trip to thoroughly enjoy it. I would suggest you not stick to such a rigid schedule. List what you would like to do in order of importance and don't plan on getting it all done. Things you might encounter serendipitously could be very worthwhile. Slow down and smell the roses.

Hello, sounds like you have done a lot of homework - nice job! (It's fun to plan, isn't it?) I do think that Saturday is very rushed. The Musee Marmottan is very nice, and the way the Monet's are arranged it would be kind of strange to just look at your top 12. There's interesting Monet related items at the top of the stairs, and then the painting are hung downstairs in 2 large rooms. I think it would be awkward to be only looking at a select few. Giverney in my opinion is a full day excursion in itself, and the American Impressionist museum down the road from Monet's residence is very good.

You might want to consider getting the audio guide for the Louvre, you can still stick to your allotted 5 hours (more than that and you are likely to glaze over) and see the highlights that are most likely on your list. Also the audio for the d'Orsay is a great help on the "impressionist floor."

Very smart of you to do Versailles on your own - you'll see a lot more. Be sure to purchase the additional guided tour of the apartments, well worth it. This is another place that the audio guides are helpful. You'll have a much better understanding of the art, decorative arts and life at the Palace that if you just wandered around.

I think it's a good idea to start with what MAY be an overly ambitious schedule, you can always cut (or add) as you go. If you don't start with a plan you could be at a museum when it is closed, or find yourself zigzagging across the city like a maniac! You really planned nicely as far as details, train schedules, etc. This is important especially when you are more than a group of 2 - the others will look at you to know when the train leaves, what station you should be at, when the museum is open etc. Make sure you take your notes with you.

You will have a great time, and you will come home with many wonderful memories.

You're trip sounds fun, but I have to agree about the logistics for Saturday. Vernon is a small town and when you arrive there will be other people with the same plan of getting a cab to get to Giverny. I am not sure you can count on walking off the train and into a cab. OTOH, you are not going there in an extremely busy time, so perhaps you will be lucky. When you get to the gardens, you will most likely have to wait in line to enter the gardens. Once inside, I think you could get through them in 1-1/2 to 2 hours, but if you want to see the house there will most likely be a line and that will prolong your visit. The tour busses are arriving and departing all day long, so I'm not sure how you plan to arrive before or after them. One kind of good thing is that the tours have a separate entrance from the non-tour people, but it most likely will be crowded in the early afternoon. I'm not sure how fortunate you will be to have a cab there when you expect, prearranged or not. There are not that many cabs in Vernon and there will most likely be delays. I'm not trying to discourage you from going there, it is a wonderful place to visit but not a place that I would recommend rushing through. The last visit there, I arrived the night before and stayed in a little hotel down the road and was the first person inside when they opened in the morning. It was magical to be alone by the water lily ponds.

Mom (and everyone else) should love "Rotisserie d'en Face" on the left bank in the St. Germain area. Great Roast Chicken and mashed potatoes, among other things. Comfort food ...but done as only the French do these things with the very finest ingredients. A very in, but casual place ( that doesn't mean warm up suits and sneakers ). Be sure to make reservations or ask your hotel concierge to do so.

I don't know where you live, but don't assume that fine french food in France is anything like fine French food in Ohio!
You don't have to have "sophisticated taste" to enjoy it, you just have to enjoy eating!

Cherski - I actually have two questions for you. First, can you give us the site you found for the louvre where you have the virtual tour (or was it something you purchased - you did say "software&quot? My second question is why are you buying a museum pass? You have your museum visits spaced over five days so you would need the five day pass (obvioiusly) which is 54 euro. You only mention about 6 museums you plan to visit, that works out to 9 euro each. So it would actually be cheaper to pay individual admissions. Or are you willing to pay the extra in order to bypass the lines. This is something that always makes me wonder (perhaps I should start a thread about it) - I have never been able to see the usefullness of the museum pass. I would like to, but everytime I consider it I realize I would never make it pay off. I was just wondering if you were doing it just for the not having to wait in line. But actually of all those you mention the only ones with much of a line are the Louvre and d'Orsay and there are ways to get around those. Just curious.

isabel,

you hit on something I was thinking myself and just started a thread on the value of the museum pass.

If mom is a serious shopper remember to take advantage of the "detaxe"; I believe you have to spend 175 euros in one store on the same day. The large department stores like Galeries Lafayette have their own tax dept and it's all done very quickly. If you're in small shops ask, because some don't have the forms. I look all over Galeries Lafayette then go back and make my purchases on the same day. Many of their departments are mini versions of outside shops; for example, La Bagagerie has beautiful handbags; if you buy them at GL you can use the tourist 10% discount card (available at information on the ground floor) and then get the detaxe as well. Overall saves about 22-25%

Also worth a look are the Passages, the old original indoor shopping arcaed; my favourite is Passage Jouffroy. Last time I brought home a doolhouse from Pain d'Epice. Also next door check out Pain d'Epice Maison.

Aaaaugh that will teach me to proofread before posting: arcades and dollhouse.

You might consider visiting Napoleon's Tomb Tuesday while you are at Invalides. (instead of Weds.) The tomb only takes a minute to see and is in Invalides right beside the WWII museum . . . which is really worth the visit. I'm not given to such things and actually walked out in tears.

Sounds like an energetic and very fun trip and you certainly have done your research well. Your Mom sounds great. I like her already.

Be sure you do a trip report so we can hear how it all progressed.

Bon voyage!

Thank you everyone for such valuable feedback. Planning for this trip has been an incredible amount of fun.

Let me just try and restate our trip-planning-philosophy. Before we go, I try to come up with an OPTIMAL plan that assumes the best. Once we?re there, if we decide to spend more time some place (for example, Giverny), or change the schedule in any other way, we?re very easy-going about doing that. We are just not the kind of people who enjoy aimless wandering and we get especially impatient if we feel like we have seen enough of something but we are still stuck there instead of moving on to something else.

We don?t expect to see everything in depth, but we do want to sample as many different places as possible. That?s why I like to pick out just a reasonable number of things to see in, for example, an art museum and read up on them ahead of time so that I can really appreciate the few things that I will have time to focus on. I read somewhere in the last two months that if you spent 10 minutes at every piece of art displayed in the Louvre, it would only take 200 days.

While this does not work for all (or even most) people, it is a philosophy that really works for us. My husband and I have been to Melbourne, Australia three times and have still not seen the penguins on Phillips Island but we have seen some things that even our friends in Melbourne did not know existed.

So, given that, let me try and respond to some of your comments ?

Taking it easy on Arrival Day ? We should get in about 9:00 am and don?t have anything absolutely scheduled until our organized-by-someone-else tour at 2:00. Because it will be up to the tour to get us from point a to point b, etc., this should be pretty low-stress for us. There is a Chez Clement right across the street from our hotel so we should be able to get a nice comfort-food dinner (I?m in favor of anyplace that has good mashed potatoes) and still get to bed early (by 9:00 pm, I hope). Based on our past experience, we think that we?ll be okay the next day.

Arc d?Triomphe ? We know that the first day bus tour goes there and drives up the Champs Elysee as well. The reason that we have the hop-on hop-off bus at the end of the week is so that we can catch anything that we feel we missed.

Eating ? We like to have a choice of places to eat at each night depending on how we feel. Bistros would be great but I just don?t have a good-enough list of choices yet. Based on their web site, the menus and prices and ambience at the brasseries in the Flo Group looked like they would be a reliable alternative. I would think that word-of-mouth (hint, hint) would be the best way to discover these. Mom is not a picky eater and actually likes peasant-type food (we?re Polish and grew up on Duck?s Blood Soup etc.). She is just not impressed with (and here I quote) frou-frou garnishes and fancy sauces.

Audio Guides ? I just love these when they are the kind that know where you are. (You enter a room and they start talking about what?s in the room). That way we can still skip some rooms, if we want. I was planning on our using them in the Louvre, but didn?t know that they were available for the Musee D?Orsay. Trust me, anyplace that they have them, we?ll get them.

Bringing our notes with ? As soon as I started this process, I began cutting-and-pasting everything (background information, schedules, maps, pictures, etc.) into a word document that organizes everything by day. When it?s time to leave, I print up a set for each of us and that?s the main guide book that we use. Surprise ? it?s got too much information to be reading it while doing whatever it is that we?re doing. But it?s great for reading over drinks the night before or coffee in the morning to get a flavor for what we?re going to do that day.

Louvre Virtual Tour ? This was software that I bought at Sam?s Club a few months ago (and got the last copy). But it can be purchased at topics-ent.com. It is called Museums of the World. Three disks are the Louvre, one is the Smithsonian, and one is the National Museum in China. I thought that the Louvre?s web site was really good but these disks actually show you where the pieces are located. (Although they do show the Mona Lisa in its old location.)

Museum Pass ? Another math major has figured out that the 5-day museum pass is not necessarily the cheapest way to see our choice of museums. Point well taken, but ? (1) we really are willing to pay extra to avoid ticket lines and (2) it?s a psychological trick. Once we?ve paid for the pass, it?s really easy to say ? we?re right at the Musee Cluny, let?s just run in for a few minutes to see a few tapestries. (Or, the lines at the Mona Lisa are too long right now. Let?s catch it at a different time when we?ll be nearby anyway.)

VAT Refund ? This is how I explain the difference between Euros and Dollars to my Mom. We get a 10% discount and as long as you spend $180 in a store on the same day (not a problem for the lady who has decided to spend my inheritance), then the price in Euros is about the same as the price in Dollars. The only problem is that she will have to have everything with her when she gets on the plane to go home ? talk about dressing in layers!

The Passages ? Mom is taking a personal guided shopping tour on Tuesday, and we?re hoping that these will be included then. If she?s brave enough to go off completely on her own, she could go there Friday afternoon while we?re doing museums.

Napolean?s Tomb ? Mom will be shopping (her choice) on Tuesday when we got to the Army Museum (our choice). She?s not that interested in the historical stuff but really does want to see Napolean?s Tomb, so that is why we?re doubling-back. In my next life, I?m going to have a family where everybody wants to do the same things at the same times (and likes exactly the same foods).

Mom ? She really is incredible.

We?ll probably end up doing about 80% of what we?ve planned and the 20% that is serendipitous will end up being our favorite experiences.

Thanks again for all your great ideas!

Cher

Hi Cher, it sounds like you have a great attitude about all of this and I am sure will have fun. One thing I've learned - and sometimes the hard way - in my travels is that everything takes longer to do than I expect it will or should. Part of that for me is the language barrier - and I do my best. The best thing is to be flexible and patient. I'm going to Paris in July and taking some of your ideas for my trip!

I think you have a great strategy and outlook. I like the idea that each person in your group has a copy of your notes, as you said nice to review/refresh the places you have been to or are going to see, and these notes will also help when you get home and you are labeling photos, making scrapbooks etc. Your Mom sounds like a lot of fun, I bet she will love Paris! I can't wait to read your trip report when you return - you're going to have a great time!

Don't believe that Giverney is slow when you go. Count on delays at every step of the way for that wonderful spot.