flpab

Are you paying cash for your accommodations in Florence? If they will allow use your credit card instead. I know our apartment owner in Florence wanted cash.

cybertraveler

Thanks to everyone for taking time to post, and sharing such important information.

We have been living off our remaining cash and are just waiting until we get to Florence to try again in person at BNL Italia if our ATM cards still don't work when we get there. We'll also be calling both banks if needed tomorrow during their business hours.

To clear up some misconceptions, we had informed both banks in advance that we would be traveling. The hotel had made us the discount offer in the confirmation email, so we knew that we'd need a large sum to pay for the two rooms. We were under the impression that the discount was offered so that the hotel could avoid paying fees to the credit card company, and I never thought to question their integrity. Believe me, if we had known what a problem it would have created, we would have simply charged it on the Cap 1 card.

Our plan had been to get cash in Barcelona, since we usually have better luck in large cities. I had forgotten to put money into the Cap1 360 account early enough, so that for the first couple of days we could only access BofA ( with fees). Those withdrawals were approved.

It was when we tried to do the same with Cap 1 in Bellagio that we first had problems.

We don't go around with large sums of money in our wallets; we have used money belts when traveling for years and have never had a problem. Thank you for the information about cash transaction limits in Italy. We will certainly try to accumulate some euros for next trip (if we can get some!) and meanwhile stick to charging!

Thanks again to all--will post back to let you know how it works out.

suze

I'm sorry for your troubles. And this definitely is a good reminder to travel with more available cash (even if you had USD on you, not ideal, but you could find somewhere to exchange it).

<<My Capital One debit card has a $600 (dollar) cap on daily withdrawals. That translates to 446 Euros>>

This is the comment that jumped out at me on this thread. Could it be those 500euro withdrawals you are trying to make are just a tad over your daily limit and that's why they aren't going thru? If you asked for 450 could you get it?

bvlenci

There are ricevute and then there are ricevute fiscali and fatture. The first would be easy to get from someone who wasn't reporting the income. The other two are traceable, and you get one or the other depending on the seller's tax category. Those wouldn't be so easy to get if you paid cash to get a discount.

Maybe there are some hotels who would give you a fiscal receipt for a cash transaction with a discount, but it's usually not the case.

NYCFoodSnob

<i><font color=#555555>"If you asked for 450 (Euro) could you get it?"</font></i>

Everything depends on the exchange rate of the day.

Based on my experience with a Cap One debit card in Italy, you cannot exceed the daily limit by one penny with your request. A maximum ATM withdrawal requires you to know the day's rate and anticipate what the local bank will charge. You can probably never know a precise number, so to get the ATM to work, it helps if you straddle just under the amount of Euro-limit rather than exceed it.

bvlenci

Most apartment owners want cash. That's often because you pay the agent at the apartment and they can't process a credit card on the apartment premises. However, the honest ones will give you a fiscal receipt (a fattura in this case).

Unfortunately, more than half the apartments rented to tourists are being rented under the table. In seaside locations, the percentage is much higher, I believe close to 80% according to a survey taken in a seaside town near where I live. I think that in Rome it's estimated that 60% of the short-term apartment rentals are illegal. This means that they will have had no safety inspections.

NYCFoodSnob

Many of us who have been doing business in Italy for decades know the difference between a Ricevuta Fiscale-Fattura and a napkin with some pen scribbled numbers. All of my cash receipts from Italy restaurants and hotels are Ricevuta Fiscale or Fiscale-Fattura. If your business gets audited in the U.S., good luck trying to use a non-official receipt for a large expense.

I don't claim to cover every corner of Italy, but from my experience, all is good with a cash discount and the proper receipt.

greg

There are many constraints in play getting cash out of ATM.

1. There are per transaction limits imposed by your bank as noted.
2. There are ATM owner bank imposed per transcation limits. Using the same card, BNL ATM would give me 300EU, but Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena ATM next to it would never give me more than 250EU.
3. There are daily limits imposed by your bank. The gotcha here is what is a "day" in relation to the "daily" limit? Whose clock is used to measure a day: you home branch clock, or some "other" clock used for this purpose? It is unlikely the Italian clock. In my case a withdrawn down at noon the day before and the withdrawal done at 9am the next day in Italy are part of the "same day" as far as the US bank is concerned.
4. If the ATM transaction traffic is bogged down for any reason, then the Italian ATM gives up due to unable to authorize transactions.
5. And there are other nobody knows why cases.

The 10% seems like a high discount. I didn't think CC processors charged that much. I thought they were in the ~3-4% range accounting for the Visa/MC assessment plus mind boggling number of various interchange fees. I have routinely seen 5% cash discounts.

NYCFoodSnob

The % amount typically is connected to length of stay or repeat customer status, or both. Amounts can vary, especially if you're drop dead gorgeous, with blonde hair and sexy, long legs.

Ackislander

"And there are other nobody knows why cases."

ATM's routinely run out of cash or certain denominations, especially on weekends, here and abroad.

These discounts have 0 ( zero) to do with credit card charges. They are tax dodges pure and simple.

Remember when you had to keep your receipt for the first 50m outside the restaurant in case the Fiscal Police wanted to see it?

NYCFoodSnob

<i><font color=#555555>"These discounts have 0 ( zero) to do with credit card charges. They are tax dodges pure and simple."</font></i>

And to that I say, prove it.

My business accepts cash payment. Whether individuals or corporations, we give a discount to repeat customers, no matter how they pay. We do not accept credit cards. There is much more to accepting credit cards than simply paying the fee-per-transaction.

We claim every cent that comes into the business. It benefits us. We appreciate our cash customers because they help us with cash flow and time management. I will not waste my time in a bank line, and I hate paying someone to stand in a bank line. There are many conveniences that come from having customers who like to pay in cash. As a business owner, I totally respect and appreciate those conveniences.

I'm not cynical enough to assume the worst in people and judge them without knowing the facts. Furthermore, the facts are none of my business.

suze

I guess I should have said if they asked for 400 euro only. Meaning perhaps the 500 is hitting their own daily w/drawl limit, being the problem.

bvlenci

The latest strategy in the unending fight against tax dodges is that any transaction over €30 can be paid with an ATM card (carta bancomat). It doesn't have to be, but the seller can't refuse an ATM card for payment. This means that shops have to get a POS machine, although many of them still haven't done so.

However, many buyers in Italy are enabling the tax cheats, although they may complain about them. They just can't resist the discount.

NYCFoodSnob

<i><font color=#555555>"many buyers in Italy are enabling the tax cheats"</font></i>

I don't think tourists are to blame for the Italian attitude towards paying taxes. The attitude famously goes back to ancient times. If anyone "enabled," I would look to the Italian government before I would point the finger at customers. There is no crime in paying for something in cash, and it's not dishonorable. It is completely unfair to put the onus of knowing and judging on the customer.

bvlenci

I said nothing about tourists. In fact, I had Italians in mind.

You ask the dentist how much you owe him and he responds by asking whether you need a "fattura". I always say I do (because after all, I can deduct it, and I do pay my taxes) but many, if not most, Italians will go for the discount.

NYCFoodSnob

<i><font color=#555555>"I said nothing about tourists. In fact, I had Italians in mind. "</font></i>

And of course this is an American travel board, and everyone can read your mind.

nytraveler

Sorry - this is NOT an "American travel bard" - we have members from all over the world - not just americans - although Fodors des publish in the US.

NYCFoodSnob

Good grief. As if I didn't know that this was the internet and anyone can join. Some people should not drink alcohol before they post here.

cybertraveler

Here's the update on our ATM saga, which I hope might be helpful to others in similar situations...

When we got to Florence, our Cap1 360 cards still weren't recognized at BNL Italia, so we tried our BofA card and it did work. We got enough to last for a few days, but we were careful to put everything we could on the credit card. We were able to use the debit cards from then on, as long as we didn't take out too much.

Since we were still in Italy on August 1, which presumably would start us on a new cycle for monthly limits, we tried the Cap1 360 card again. We tried it at Banca Toscana, and no luck. Since we were walking past the Cambio Firenze bank next door anyway and really had nothing to lose, we decided to try the card at their machine. This time, incredibly, it did work!

So, we were able to withdraw enough over the next two days to have some with us the next time we go to Europe.

So, it sounds like the monthly limit was the major stumbling block here, as well as daily limits. Lesson learned, and thanks again for your advice...much more helpful than any we received from the "professionals"!