Hi everyone! All advice and suggestions are appreciated!!

My family of 4 (My husband, 15 year old daughter, and 8 year old son, and I) have booked flights to travel to Europe for the first time in June for 17 days (including travel time on plane.) We will be flying to Paris and flying back home from Paris. These are the places we have on our list so far:
- Paris
- Venice
- Rome
- Switzerland
- Amsterdam
I am unsure of how many days we should spend in each place, which cities to go to in Switzerland & Amsterdam, if train is better than car, & any must-go recommendations from experienced travelers (we are pretty inexperienced ourselves!!) Also, is Amsterdam worth going to or should we replace it with Munich instead?? I want to plan everything out ahead of time to get cheaper tickets, book things early, and ensure a smooth trip. We're interested in seeing some museums, maybe go shopping for a day or two, and mainly see the beautiful cities, countryside, & landscape. We are adventurous & open to all areas! We want to make the most out of our trip, yet also not be too exhausted and have fun. Yes, we have our passports, but have not yet applied for the Schengen Visa for my husband & I. We also do not need to book a hotel for Paris because we have family friends that live there who are allowing us to stay with them. We would have liked to do London, but unfortunately it is not included in the Schengen Visa. One last thing, we will not be returning to Europe shortly after this trip. I will reply and kindly take any input, feel free to ask any questions! Thanks so much!!
- Amy

>>> if train is better than plane
This depends on your route. You will come up with better solutions by listing where you want to go first then ask what options are there to connect.
>>> 17 days (including travel time on plane.)
How many nights do you have in Europe? Depending on where you are coming from, "17 days including travel time on place" can mean 15 nights = 14 full days. You will have tough time avoiding "yet also not be too exhausted" if you try to visit all these places. Just do a simple math. 15 nights, 5 destinations = 3 nights per stop = 2 full days at each stop.
If you do want to connect Paris/Rome, for example, fly one way to the furthest point and travel back slowly. You couldn't book multi-city flights like flying into Rome and coming back from Paris? If you could have done that, you could have saved almost one day.
>>> Also, is Amsterdam worth going to or should we replace it with Munich instead??
I think your granularity is too large. Are you comparing destinations without looking inside? Only you know what in each stop interest you. Many people spin their head listing milliards of things to do and get stuck. You will have to start listing what you want to do, estimate time to get there using online tools, spend time, and get to the next venue. You might quickly find you were spending time waffling about activities totally not achievable within the number of days available to you.

I'm confused about your visa comment. What passports do you have? Are you sure you need visas for Europe and the UK?

The places on your list are a long way apart, have you considered spending time just in two countries, but seeing more of each country? Say, France and Switzerland? Or France and Italy? Generally I'd recommend using the trains in Europe but you could opt to fly between two cities if it was a long way. Be aware that the budget airlines usually have more luggage restrictions than international airlines (say, 20kg instead of 23kg and $$$ if you are over).

Generally we allow 3 days in each place, more if there is a huge amount to do (like London or Paris). You lose most of a day every time you move on, so factor that in (checking out, getting to train/plane, travelling, getting to hotel, unpacking etc). Fewer places mean you can see more and have a day here and there just to chill, shop, sit at a cafe people-watching, etc.

You could spend the whole trip in Switzerland so either narrow that down to a city or area, or cross it off the list and go another time.

Kay

Thanks for your feedback! We are travelling from California to Paris Charles de Gaulle nonstop. We will be there for 16 days and 15 nights, I believe, because we will be arriving in the morning on the 8th and leaving at noon on the 24th. We booked our flights early for a total of $2,929.45, about $725 for each person, so we were't able to pass this deal and couldn't book multi-city flights. I narrowed our list down these places:
- Rome & Venice
- Paris
- Lucerne & Jungfrauregion
Is it realistic to add Amsterdam for a couple of days?
We plan on spending 4 days in Paris, Rome, & Venice, 2 days in Switzerland, and maybe 2 days in Amsterdam. OR we could add those two days by cancelling Amsterdam and spending 4 days in Switzerland. However, I have heard that Amsterdam is an easy place to navigate for first time travelers.

Going all the way to Switzerland for two days seems a bit crazy. You mention Lucerne and the Jungfrau - two days is not enough for that, you need to allow for travel time between each place. What about doing Paris, Amsterdam and Switzerland and cut out Italy? I think you are trying to do too much. Try writing a list of each day and beside each day, write where you will be and factor in the travel time between each place. That might help.

Amsterdam is an easy place to get around, and beautiful too, but you have to allow the best part of a day to get there and the same to get to the next city. So you've effectively lost two days.

Kay

>>We would have liked to do London, but unfortunately it is not included in the Schengen Visa<<

>>We are travelling from California to . . .<<

You are traveling from CA -- does that mean you have US Passports - or are you some other nationality? Please clarify. Because IF you are Americans you do not need Schengen visas and you can certainly include London if you wanted to . . .

>>We will be there for 16 days and 15 nights,<<

You are probably counting wrong. 15 nights equals 14 days not 16 . . .

Hi, if you are citizens of the USA you do not need a visa go to any of the countries listed, or to England (the U.K.) The Schengen Visa is for people going on much longer trips than yours, and it pertains to how many days you can be within a certain block of countries. Take that off the table; it doesn't apply. If you would like to go to London, then I really think you should.
Reasons why you should add London:
--it's a great introduction to Europe for first-time travelers. You have foreign money, a different mass transit system, somewhat different ways of doing things--but in English.
--it's really close to Paris. You could fly there and take the Chunnel train back, which would be fun for the kids.
--Kids and teens usually love London. Very walkable. The London Eye, the Tower And there's also Harry Potter, for those who love that.

Frankly, I think an England/France trip by itself would be fun. Both amazing countries with lots of great places beyond London and France. Think of it this way: Would you consider the USA to be just New York and DC and then time for Canada? But you sound like you'd like to see more countries. So add a third destination, but definitely not a fourth. Add some day trips to the mix. These will expose another side of each country than a big city.

Roughly.. I would do it like this:
Fly into Paris, but don't stay. Catch a plane directly from the airport to your other European destination. This means you have one less hotel move. Spend your siteseeing time in Paris at the end of your trip. You will want to sleep in the hotel near CDG the night before your flight back home.

So arrive in Switzerland (as an example). Spend 4 nights there.

Fly to London. Spend 5 nights there.

Chunnel to Paris. Spend 5 nights there.

(I wouldn't recommend flying out of London as fees are much higher. Fly into London and Chunnel out. So it makes sense to do London right before Paris.)

Here are some side trips. There are many more people could offer--if we knew more of what your family likes.
France:
Giverny:
Giverny - Claude Monet's House and gardens - Water lilies - Impressionist Art paintings - Hotels, Map - Rouen, Seine Valley, Paris - Normandy Tourism, France

Mont St Michel:

Chateaux of the Loire Valley:
https://www.chateauvillandry.fr/
https://frenchmoments.eu/top-10-most...-loire-valley/

England:
London-tea at a palace
https://kensingtonpalacepavilion.co.uk/

Bath
https://www.pommietravels.com/london...ted-itinerary/

Oxford:
https://www.visitbritain.com/us/en/1...-and-do-oxford

If you have Harry Potter fans, there's this:
https://www.wbstudiotour.co.uk/

I do understand 5alive's idea reasoning about not staying in Paris when you arrive, but the flight from California will be very long so I would likely opt to stay in Paris on arrival. You can easily do Paris and London or Paris and Italy but Italy will already be getting quite warm. You do lose quite a bit of time just going from one location to another. If this was my trip, I would probably chose Paris and London with a few side trips. As someone mentioned above, you do not need Shengen visas.

>>Yes, we have our passports, but have not yet applied for the Schengen Visa for my husband & I<<

Are they UNITED STATES passports? If so you do not need any sort of visa for Schengen or the UK. Maybe you need to rethink where you want to visit since it seems you were working under misconceptions re visa requirements. In your first post you mention really wanting to visit London but can't due to the visa issue. So - with the visa problem off the table -- where would your dream trip be . . .

That point has been made by other posters above. Let's be patient and allow OP to respond to those questions.

Whitehall: Yes, several of us have asked the OP but she hasn't clarified. We still don't know if they are US passports . . . It does seem pretty clear they are confused about what is needed to travel to the UK and/or Schengen. So I emphasized the specific issue -- your problem is???

>>> We booked our flights early for a total of $2,929.45, about $725 for each person, so we were't able to pass this deal and couldn't book multi-city flights.
This comment for others reading the thread.
It is too late for the OP in any case. This strategy would be a logical choice if the destinations were limited to easily reachable places from Paris, such as Netherlands, Belgium, London, most parts of France, one place in Switzerland, etc.
However, when the destinations are so far away from the landing airport, it would benefit doing a TOTAL cost analysis before hitting that "buy" button. Even if the multi-city flight is more expensive, the trip as a WHOLE can cost less and yields more time on the ground by not having to pay for the backtracking cost and time.

This a travel itinerary trick I learned on this board, so I can't take credit for it. Sorry if I did not explain this well. I will try again.

If she ends the vacation with travel in Italy or Switzerland and then flies to Paris, she is not on the same single flight itinerary. If she misses the flight home to the United States, she would have some big penalties to rebook. Those fees really add up for a party of 4.

Therefore, she should stay in Paris at least one night before she flies home to the United States to ensure that she makes her transcontinental flight. And if so, she will need a hotel. Why not group ALL of her Paris area sightseeing together and move hotels one less time?

Because if they do it your way, splitting Paris between the beginning and end of the trip, they have an extra hotel move. But more than that: how much will they really see with one final night in Paris? After a plane or train back to Paris the day before? Seems like a wasted day.

I don't feel we know what she and her family really want to see. She gave the names of whole countries, but we don't really know why she picked them. Family heritage? Favorite part of a college course? Instagram? And she may change her plans significantly. I threw a few random ideas out there for her, but really she needs to watch some Rick Steves videos, or get some good guide books with photographs.

Exactly.

The OP sounds like she has sufficient knowledge to know the existence of a Schengen visa vs. a separate UK visa. Citizens from 102 countries need to get a Schengen Visa to travel to member countries. Citizens from 33 countries need a visa to visit England. I am betting she has a passport from one of those countries.There is sometimes a presumption here that everyone who posts here have US passports. A new poster is limited with how often they can post, yet some people swarm these new OPs with unnecessary questions and assumptions. And, maybe they ARE confused. My problem is with someone who knows these limitations on posting, yet badgers a new OP with a question she and others have already asked before the OP is able to respond.

Rome & Venice
- Paris
- Lucerne & Jungfrauregion
16 days

Definitely take the train to those places - cities are tough to drive in and Rome and obviously Venice can't be driven in by private vehicles. Nor can the Jungfrau Region beyond Grindewald and Lauerbrunnen.

A possible route:

Paris - 5 days with possible day trips, at least to Versaiiles which is practically in Paris.

Take overnight train - kids will find it an adventure - Paris to Venice (www.thello.com for fares) - get private cabin and bring and food and drink aboard. Negates need for a hotel so train fare is about off-sea by that.

Venice - 3 days - take boats to outer islands - quite a thrill by boat.

Venice-Interlaken and Jungfrau Region takes much of a day

Jungfrau Region - 4 days - lots of thrilling mountain railways and aerial gondolas

Lucerne - 2 days

Take train back to Paris - about 6-7 hours.

For lots on trains check www.bahn.de/en - schedules for all European trains and every easy to use; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com.

15 nights. Arriving in Paris after long flight from California. Paris: 5 nights (4 days). leaves 10 nights Last night of trip must be in Paris so as not to miss flight home. 5 paris nights could be split 4/1 or 3/2, but last "day" is for travel so only 3 useful days in Paris. Better make it 6 nights total Paris. Leaves 9 nights.
Travel to next goal, uses a day checking out, getting there, checking in. Leaves 8 nights. Travel to next goal, uses a day, leaves 7 nights. Travel back to Paris uses another day, leaves 6 nights. Split the 6 nights 3 each at the two goals. To choose the 2 non-Paris cities, consider geography. London, Amsterdam close enough together to do it. Italy a bit far, but if both secondary cities are in Italy, feasible. Venice and Rome?

Trip will be 3 cities, or more time will be spent in transit than actually seeing anyplace.

>>There is sometimes a presumption here that everyone who posts here have US passports. A new poster is limited with how often they can post, yet some people swarm these new OPs with unnecessary questions and assumptions<<

That is WHY we are asking. The OP says they are traveling from California . . . Most, but not all of course, people flying from CA to Europe have US passports.

No one is badgering the OP -- She can read the posts at her leisure and post as soon as the 'new posts window' re-opens and hopefully answer what we are asking.

Why so angry about us trying to help a possibly misinformed or confused traveler????

No anger from me. You were the one using bold type, red type, all caps, underlines in addressing an OP. probably unable to respond You were the one who chimed in about visas after someone else did. A third poster then brought up the issue. And then you, without knowing the facts, said “since it seems you were working under misconceptions re visa requirements” and “So, with the visa problem off the table....". What if the OP and her husband hold Chinese passports?

I appreciate everyone helping me clear my confusion. Since I am a new OP, I didn't realize I couldn't post more than 2 times per day, my apologies for the delay. To address everyone's questions about the Schengen visa:
My husband and I have Mongolian passports, so they require a Schengen visa to visit European countries minus the UK (you need a separate visa). So, unfortunately, we can't go to London (maybe we'll save it for another trip sometime.)

We want to do Paris, Venice, Rome, Lucerne, and the Jungfrau Region. Would that be too much to do in 15 days (excluding air travel time)? Right now, I have roughly planned 5 days in Paris (with day trips), 3 days in Venice, 4 days in the Jungfrau Region, and 2 days in Lucerne (& take a train ride back to Paris for the last day, sleep for the night, and board our flight the next day at 12 noon.) However, I can't seem to fit in Rome that fits our travel duration time realistically. Should I cut out some days in the Jungfrau Region and Paris? Or should I possibly cut out one of the major cities? Because I do realize I'm trying to fit in too much into our short period of stay.

Additional information; we have close family friends who live right in Paris, so we will not be needing to stay in a hotel there (they have plenty of bedroom space.) They also offered to give us 2 cars and travel with us (they are a family of four as well) while we stay in Paris. I assume they know where to go and will hopefully help us have a good time there for they have lived there for the past 10 years. So we will be saving money in Paris, thanks to their kindness. Once again, I appreciate everyone's feedback, you guys are extremely helpful to me!