Helsie

Can I just throw a spanner in the works a plump for hiring a car? Without your own transport how will you be able to mender from one pretty Cotswold village to the next in your own time for instance?
My husband and I( we are Aussies too) had a wonderful holiday touring England and staying a week ( or in our case two weeks, we spent 14 altogether ) at a time in holiday cottages in pretty villages, going out each day in different directions to see what was in the area. That gave us the ability to wash our clothes and get them dry, rest and sit in a quiet village tea room some days and visit village pubs where more than one visit had you recognised and greeted warmly. You still can't cover the whole country in such a short time but what you see you will see properly and also have the time to take some of the wonderful walks that are the true diamond in the crown IMO.
Also if you really want to see Ireland why not fly into Dublin, hire a car and drive. Then catch the ferry across to Hollyhead, drive back towards London via Conwy ( lovely walled town and castle), Chester, Stratford-on-Avon, the Cotswalds, Oxford . You can pick up a car in Hollyhead and probably drop it off somewhere like Oxford then train to London for a couple of days before flying home.
Two weeks in Ireland and stretch to four more in England and you've seen a lot without tiring yourself out and making it an endurance test. Scotland needs its own holiday or swap Scotland for Ireland ( you can fly direct to Dublin or Glasgow with Emirates ). I'm sure you will have a wonderful time and May is a beautiful time to go if you want to see England in flower !

janisj

Besides the senior rail card -- check out the 'Two Together' rail card. It may even get you better fares than the Senior rail card, especially when you factor in having to buy two senior cards but only one 'Two Together' card. I <i>assume</i> you would both be traveling together on every journey

steve_Australia

Absolutely JanisJ. Some people never travel without their camera - I never travel without my wife

I am also certainly not an OAP Annhig (although 60+) - my continuing to work allows us to also continue to travel so why not. We are fortunate living in Australia that we have a generous amount of annual leave/public holidays/long service leave etc to enable us to spend time travelling. It would be a long way to travel for a short trip.

We have also travelled a lot on 1st class trains on the continent because of the great value. However, I have been told that British Rail is quite a bit more expensive than what we experienced in most European countries - with the exception of Thalys and TGV.

Being from Oz we obviously have no trouble with the language or the "correct" size of the road. We have heard that the major hurdles are the parking and cost of fuel. It would be nice to stick to trains and buses if possible.

We managed to see lovely places in Austria like St Gilgen and Hallstatt, Melk etc using nothing but public transport. I am hoping some of the more picturesque places in England are also accessible via PT.

Southam, thank you for your suggestions. Yes, we have always bought open-jaw plane tickets. It made sense flying into Amsterdam and out of Rome. Or into Munich and out of Amsterdam etc. I just thought touring England, Scotland and Wales it would be just as easy to get a London return flight. Depending on our final itinerary though, we will certainly consider open-jaw again.

Thank you all so much for the helpful suggestions. If anyone has some ideas about good base locations to see a number of areas/sites please let me know.

Thanks again and regards,

Steve

janisj

>>It would be nice to stick to trains and buses if possible.<<

I wouldn't honestly. You have nothing preventing you from driving -- and while it is certainly possible to do a satisfactory tour around the British Isles by public transport . . . You really can see soooooooo much more (on your own schedule) if you drive.

You do not want/need a car in London of course, nor in most city centres (York, Edinburgh, Bath, etc.) But to explore rural areas of England (the Cotswolds, Yorkshire Dales, a lot of the southwest, and anywhere in Scotland), a car really is best.

You might consider something like flying into London, visiting the city, then train to say Edinburgh (or Inverness or Aberdeen or Glasgow) - then after seeing the city collecting a car and zig zagging down the country -- places like the Highlands, Trossachs, Borders, SW Scotland, Northumberland/Hadrian's Wall, the Lake District and/or Yorkshire, the Cotswolds, the southwest and back to LHR to fly home. It would be a stretch to fit all of that into 5 weeks but picking maybe 75% of those regions would work.

But by train/bus you would have to cut out maybe two thirds.

flanneruk

Two minor corrections:

1. It's simply untrue that "Trains are great and go everywhere all the time ". Many trains are great, some are awful and they DON'T go everywhere. Of your original wishlist, trains (or planes) can get you to Scotland, the Cotswolds, Wales, Ireland and much of Scotland: but a car is almost always essential for travelling round those places. The Liverpool or Holyhead to Oxford meander is theoretically possible by train, but a lot easier by car.

There are a limited but crucial group of cities where a car is an extremely expensive nuisance to be lumbered with: London, Oxford, Bath, Edinburgh and Dublin especially. In most other cities (like Liverpool or York) they're pains that are manageable and probably more trouble to get rid of than to leave for a pricey few days in a car park.

2. It's not strictly true that "Senior Rail Card...gets you reduced fares on all trains in all classes." Most often, they give discounts only on offpeak fares, and the definition of offpeak varies by operator and route. Sometimes, two-way tickets bought on a senior card can be invalid for some return journeys, though I suspect inspectors use their common sense with foreign accents.

First Class fares usually carry, if bought individually, extraordinarily high premiums (often several hundred percent) over standard class discounted fares, though there are often dirt cheap specials. This appears not to be true for the Britrail passes.

For any significant rail journey, it's always wise to check alternative fares on nationalrail.co.uk. Also note that a growing number of city pairs now offer competing operators, often on subtly different routes. The Man in Seat 61 site, though often excessively crusading for trains, is the best explanation of gaming our complex fare system.

annhig

annhigh -your take on the difference between first and second class - it does vary on various franchises.>>

Pal - of course, but I am most frequently to be found on the GW services between Redruth and Plymouth where there are still bargains to be had if you can book ahead, though the £7 single first class fare perished some time ago. The GW service in first class is excellent and if travelling up to London and back I always try to get a train with a dining car - if you are lucky you can pay for second class and travel first at least for the time it takes to eat three courses, and have coffee, VERY slowly.

My problem is that I can't guarantee which train I'll be catching to come back and have too often found myself on the 3-15 which is 2 carriages full of school kids. those travelling for leisure can probably avoid that dread fate.

PalenQ

First Class fares usually carry, if bought individually, extraordinarily high premiums (often several hundred percent) over standard class discounted fares,>

Again for the odd person who wants to just go down to the station and hop on any train and find empty seats first class yes is terribly expensive on a walk-up basis -in that case with several longer trips a BritRail Pass would be a great deal - especially if 60 or over.

And there are specials and nuances to passes -Nov-Feb all are discounted about 20%- Off Peak Special and the Party Pass allows the 3rd thru 9th passenger on the same pass to pay just 50% of what the first two pay and kids under 16 get a free pass.

So you can see that say 4 people traveling together can reduce the BritRail Pass price significantly - especially if traveling in off-season- the more on one pass the cheaper p.p. it becomes.

steve_Australia

Hello again. Thank you all for your suggestions. I am sorry I have been away from internet access for the past 9 days - and what an isolated feeling that is

I think we will probably base in London for a while and take a few day trips (via train) to places like Bath, Stonehenge, Oxford and Stratford Upon Avon as they seem reasonably accessible by train and a pain by car.

We might then catch a train to somewhere in the Cotswolds (??) and hire a car from there. Not sure what to do when we get to Edinburgh though. The consensus seems to be that you don't want a car there, but will need one for the rest of Scotland and for our southern journey through England to Devon, Cornwall etc. Any suggestions for a doable itinerary please?

Thanks, Steve

janisj

>>We might then catch a train to somewhere in the Cotswolds (??) and hire a car from there.<<

Nope -- there is nowhere in the Cotswolds that has national rental chains where you can collect a car and drop it elsewhere.

Your best options are either to take public transport out to LHR and get your car there (just about the easiest place in w/i about 100 miles of London to get a car and head out w/o having to deal w/ city centre congestion or limited opening hours) . . . or . . . take the train to Oxford or Bath, visit that city and then collect your car on your way out of town. But honestly -- LHR is easier.

Your idea to visit Oxford and Stratford and Stonehenge etc from a base in London is semi logical. BUT then you want to go to the Cotswolds . . . which are just west of Oxford and just south of Stratford so a lot of to-ing and fro-ing. Oxford is an easy and very doable day trip from London. But Stonehenge id easy by car and a day trip to Bath REALLY cuts Bath short IMO.

Maybe consider a day trip to Oxford. Then upon leaving London, head out to LHR, get a car, visit Stonehenge and drive on to Bath where you could stay 1 or 2 nights.

>>The consensus seems to be that you don't want a car there, but will need one for the rest of Scotland and for our southern journey through England to Devon, Cornwall etc. Any suggestions for a doable itinerary please?<<

It sounds like you are considering heading north to Scotland and then south to Cornwall. That really doesn't work.

Maybe consider doing a big driving loop west and south of London (Stratford/ Cotswolds/ Bath/ Stonehenge/ the Southwest). Drop the car and fly or take the train to Edinburgh, stay there 2 or 3 days, collect a car and zigzag back down the country. A couple of weeks in Scotland, then Northumberland, York/Yorkshire and back south to fly home.

That would really need more than 6 weeks though. 1-ish wk London, 2 wks southern road trip, 2 or 3 days Edinburgh, 1.5 to 2 wks rural Scotland, and 7-ish days for Northumberland/York/the Dales and/or Moors.

steve_Australia

Thanks JanisJ - yes, I'm afraid I've been found out with regard to my UK geographical knowledge. I've yet to find a map outlining counties/cities and general location descriptions.

I also had trouble deciding on how best to see NEWS with regard to the mainland. Again, I am not all that familiar with the UK with regard to seeing it in a sensible directional way.

Should we head:
1. SE from London
2. W to Southampton (or SW to Plymouth)
3. NW to Bath, Liverpool, Blackpool and on to Scotland?
4. Then head down the East coast of Scotland through Edinburgh
5. Finally down through York etc

There are so many cities and I simply don't know which ones to visit and which to bypass.

I'm sorry to be so vague, but I found navigating Europe a lot easier. ha ha

Regards,

Steve

janisj

>>1. SE from London<<

What do you want to see SE of London? That is Kent and East Sussex -- places like Canterbury, Dover, Sissinghurst, Chartwell, Rye etc. Great places to visit -- but this is the first time I think that region has been mentioned.

>>3. NW to Bath, Liverpool, Blackpool and on to Scotland?<<

You do need a map Bath is due west of London. Liverpool, Blackpool (why??? ) are far NW of London, and Scotland is the 'northern territory'.

1 through 5 . . . you would need two full months if you want to include all that.

You are so all over the place (not a criticism) I seriously suggest you pick up a guide book or two. DK Eyewitness, Michelin Green Guide, Fodors, whatever. . . . AND a map

But for a start -- the itinerary I laid out in my last post would be a jumping off point.

thursdaysd

" I've yet to find a map outlining counties/cities and general location descriptions. "

You're on a computer. Use google maps, ask for London UK and shrink the map.

Visit your local library, they might actually have an atlas.

Buy a map online.

Buy or borrow a guidebook.

How did you plan your Europe trip?

PalenQ

Not sure what to do when we get to Edinburgh though.>

No you do not need one for Edinburgh itself but a few car-less days there and rent the car and go - no problem driving out of Edinburgh really but could rent one at the airport i guess.

steve_Australia

JanisJ, you took all my directions based on London. Bath may well be due West of London - but at that point of my itinerary we were in Portsmouth which I believe would put Bath NW. I am basically trying to set out a doable travelling direction starting in London, and then driving without "doubling back" and hopefully seeing the South, West and North of England as well as, as much of Scotland as time will allow.

Thanks PalenQ. Yes, it seems the airport is the best place to rent a car. JanisJ mentioned LHR for the England rental a few posts back.

janisj

>> I am basically trying to set out a doable travelling direction starting in London, and then driving without "doubling back" and hopefully seeing the South, West and North of England as well as, as much of Scotland as time will allow.<<

Which I gave you:

>><i><blue>Maybe consider doing a big driving loop west and south of London (Stratford/ Cotswolds/ Bath/ Stonehenge/ the Southwest). Drop the car and fly or take the train to Edinburgh, stay there 2 or 3 days, collect a car and zigzag back down the country. A couple of weeks in Scotland, then Northumberland, York/Yorkshire and back south to fly home.

That would really need more than 6 weeks though. 1-ish wk London, 2 wks southern road trip, 2 or 3 days Edinburgh, 1.5 to 2 wks rural Scotland, and 7-ish days for Northumberland/York/the Dales and/or Moors.</i></blue><<

steve_Australia

Oops Sorry, I should have re-read some of the earlier posts. I am still a little unsure about the Cotswolds, however. It is just a word to me. What are some of the must-visit towns/cities within the Cotswolds that we should visit?

Hello Thursdaysd,

<How did you plan your Europe trip?>

Well, we have been on three trips to continental Europe in the past 4 years. But, for an example, travelling from Paris, Switzerland and through Italy it was quite straightforward. After a week in Paris, we took:

1. Train from Paris to Vevey, Switzerland via Geneva.
2. Train from Vevey to Brienz
3. Train from Brienz to Zermatt
4. Train from Zermatt to Milan and then another train and ferry to Bellagio
5. Train (or two) from Bellagio to Verona
6. Train from Verona to Venice
7. Train from Venice to Cinque Terre
8. Train from Cinque Terre to Florence (via a 3-hour stop in Pisa)
9. Train from Florence to Sorrento
10. Train from Sorrento to Rome

This was over 8 weeks and al of the trains were pre-booked. All trains stopped in central locations within all cities. Nearly all cities were walkable. We used metros in Paris and had a private driver for a day to tour the Amalfi Coast, but otherwise we were able to see heaps via walking or public transport.

I am finding seeing the UK far more difficult

thursdaysd

Not sure why you are finding the UK more difficult. It is considerably smaller, after all. Trains and buses go to a lot of places, although Cornwall and the Cotswolds are more difficult.

If you don't know anything about the Cotswolds, why do you want to go there?

This year I spent a month traveling in the UK by public transport (click on my name for the TR). Sites you may find useful:

seat61.com/index.html
www.nationalrail.co.uk
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/statio...ions/maps.aspx
coach.nationalexpress.com/nxbooking/start-search
www.traveline.info
www.rome2rio.com/

But I find that starting with a good guidebook works best. Any good guidebook will also have maps.

steve_Australia

Thanks Thursdaysd - those sites will come in handy and I will have a read of the Trip Report.

With regard to the Cotswolds. I was simply suggesting that I don't know how to get there if I don't know a place name. I have heard is a wonderful area of England to visit, however.

As a comparison, I had heard that "The Salzkammergut" (lakes district) was a wonderful place to see when visiting Austria. However, there is no town called The Salzkammergut. It wasn't until I found out about "St Gilgen" and "Hallstatt" that I was able to visit the area.

I was hoping for a couple of names to help us see the area of the Cotswolds.

thursdaysd

Stow on the Wold. Chipping Norton. The Slaughters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotswolds

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/day...west/cotswolds

Note that you can stay in some National Trust properties:

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/holidays

I think the same is also true for English Heritage.

janisj

Some of the best towns in the Cotswolds would include Burford, Chipping Campden, Upper and Lower Slaughter, Bibury, Bourton-on-the Water, Painswick, Tetbury, Stanton (for one specific pub w/ the best views in the region), Broadway and LOTS more.

GET A GUIDE BOOK.