Holly_uncasdewar

Nobody suggested Maggie was an immigrant. Someone needs to go back to Reading 101.

PalenQ

There are Roma operating all over the place and if it is not PC to say so, well too bad. I am not saying all Roma do this but there are a significant number who do. Despite all my awareness I narrowly escaped being robbed in the Florence train station by a team of three..they were good, but not that good.>

So the Italians you claim are responsible for a lot of petty street crime were Romani - who no doubt are probably legally there - with the free movement of people in the EU?

OK those Italians yes and no doubt some ethnic Italians too but I still think much of the crime is due to appalling living conditions in unofficial camps mentioned above and is an act of desperation - not that they are bad people - just desperate folks who would probably jump at a good job, good housing, etc.

raincitygirl

Pal, I am sure there are a lot of pickpockets/thieves in Italy who are non -Roma, Italians. Just like there are thieves here in my country who were born and bred here. In every society you are going to have people who make a career out of theft and dishonesty. I wasn't trying to imply all pickpockets are Roma like the ones I encountered.

But sometimes on this forum I read remarks that try to lead people to believe that there is no such thing as Roma pickpocketing rings and other scams; I think when you travel it is important to be aware of all the things that are out there.

I have no idea how many Roma were born in Italy and how many have freedom of movement, from what I understand that freedom of movement has time limitations. I do understand they are not treated very well in Europe.

And it would be interesting to read some stats on how many of these petty crimes are committed by immigrants, I am not so sure of your assertions. As I said above, many of them get roped in by one Mafia group or another to sell their dodgy goods.

sandralist

Folks, Fodorites, hello?

The bottom line is that the only helpful advice you can give to fellow travelers regarding pickpockets anywhere is and always will be: Wear a money belt. Secure your belongings.

The notion that you are being helpful spreading half-baked ideas about "immigrant-types" and the you are so knowledgeable as to guide other people to racial profiling in wrong and unhelpful -- and it actually puts many vulnerable people into danger -- which many of you appear utterly oblivious to, despite claiming to be sociological experts on urban risk in Europe.

If you come to Europe by plane rather than a leaky dinghy, or in the clutches of a sex trafficker or child labor trafficker, if you are coming to have fun rather than out of desperation, you are one helluva lucky person in this world. Please leave immigrants alone, verbally and on the internet. You know nothing about them and are not being helpful to other travelers. If you want to be helpful, tell people who are worried about pickpockets the truth: Wear a money belt. Don't go looking to get comfy with Italians and hostile to immigrants. Wear a money belt.

That's all. Is is really so hard to do that?

raincitygirl

Duly noted sandralist/Fodor's head girl.

I think money belts are ridiculous in first world situations but if you like to tell people to wear them go ahead.

Nobody was claiming to be sociological experts on urban risk zeppole. It is not true that I know nothing about immigrants but not in the mood to take on the bully in the room right now. I am not so sure you are the immigrant expert either despite your know it all attitude.

But carry on, I will be quiet now.

PalenQ

sandra as always is right - no other takes are legitimate, as usual. Maybe she should answer all Italian questions herself - no other views allowed or they will be maligned and denigrated if differing from hers.

On her above take I am in 100% agreement - take proper precautions per valuable and I'll add be leery of anyone of any looks coming up to you, unfortunately - even Americans who could also be pickpockets and scam artists.

Q is why do Rome police put up with what would be easy to stop it seems - talking about the Rome Termini station thread recently that documented a real problem there.

NewbE

<The notion that you are being helpful spreading half-baked ideas about "immigrant-types" and the you are so knowledgeable as to guide other people to racial profiling in wrong and unhelpful>

Spot on! Anyone who still refers to a human being as "an illegal" is beneath notice, anyway.

But I do have a question: why so much pickpocketing in Europe (it seems) and not in the US? Travelers to the US are warned about lots of things--remember the horrible spate of violent carjackings of rental cars in Orlando? Or, on a more mundane note, purse snatching seems something to be aware of--but not pickpockets.

What gives? And I am not looking for more paragraphs about the Roma! I'm just curious. Are American thieves too lazy to learn the fine art of pickpocketing??

PalenQ

There are plenty of pickpockets and strong arm robberies all over the place - done by Americans though a huge proportion by drug addicts, the mentally ill or opportunists - but mainly drug addicts to buy a fix - these are in areas tourists rarely go.

University campuses are a target with all the I phone and lap tops, etc - in my university town - Ann Arbor, an upscale place for sure there have been many such thefts from study places or late at night strong-arm robberies of drunk students stumbling home.

they do it for the same reasons illegal immigrants in Rome do it and this is not my idea or take but often given by others too - get money for food in their case or perhaps drugs - but smack in our case.

annhig

But I do have a question: why so much pickpocketing in Europe (it seems) and not in the US?>>

Do people who are victims of pickpockets/bad-snatchers in the US post regularly on these or other travel forums? IME not so much, but they do when they/their neighbours/friends/ cousin's mate from round the corner get dipped in Barcelona.

Rome and Barcelona are the only places that I have visited where I felt before I went that using a money belt was advisable. Once I'd been there once I realised that I needn't worry so much and didn't bother again. But it is always worth being sensible and using the same precautions you would at home.

That is not to say I blame the victims - sometimes the thieves of what ever hue are just smarter than we are.

NewbE

Maybe my confusion is just a terminology problem. When I say "pickpocket", I mean someone with nimble fingers reaching stealthily into my clothes or bag while I'm wearing/carrying them. Thefts from bags left unattended, or the snatching of entire bags is, for me, a different category.

And certainly what little I know about this subject is entirely anecdotal.

None of this is remotely important, of course.

PalenQ

What is important that there is a real problem around Termini station and other tourist hubs - so just take precautions advised above and be leering of anyone of any ethnic background, including pure Italian, coming up to you. Never carry a wallet in a back pocket as I still see some naive Americans doing places or ladies wearing the family jewels (once in Madrid at a tourist office a woman staffer told one American so wearing jewels 'to take them off - don't wear them in public' - Madrid having a much bigger problem than Rome and even strong-arm muggings, rare in Rome or other places outside of Madrid and Barcelona it seems IME.

Holly_uncasdewar

And be leery of anyone standing around leering at anyone else.

PalenQ

Well comely young gals will see lots of men - espeically Italian guys leering IME and making catcalls - a common complaint in Italy from younger women - too much attention - something you rarely see elsewhere. (Oh-oh here comes the indignation and calls for my head for even saying that!)

dfourh

Of the 12 Million ethnic Roma, more than 10% live in Italy, and the majority of them are Italian citizens. Here's a little portrait of the Roma camps outside many major Italian cities: http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/politics/...-in-italy.html

bvlenci

Palenq, that maybe happened thirty or forty years ago, but it would be extremely unusual now. I sometimes wonder when you were last in Italy.

Besides, what does IME mean in this context? Have you been getting catcalls?

PalenQ

It's been 4 years since I was in Italy and maybe my memories pre-date my recent visits - but this was prompted by two younger gals I know who came back and said to them at least it was a problem.

It seems to have been a problem in 2010 but maybe young Italian guys as you say grown up lately.

PalenQ

IME meant watching gigolos whistle and catcall at younger gals - not for sure at me!

This from 2005 - 10 years ago:

http://alittleadrift.com/2010/11/car...culture-italy/

so maybe my memories are of a decade ago - not sure but it remains in my mind when thinking about Italy - maybe there were none 4 years ago as sandralist claims this does not happen in Italy no more - things can change quickly in 10 years I guess.

I'll have to take note next time - maybe 4 years ago I saw none and it did not register as much as the constant constant such juvenile behaviour that not long ago at least was rampant in Italy though completely gone today according to Sandra. Good development - those young gals who came back recently and said there was must have been imagining - maybe hopefully...

PalenQ

as sandralist claims this does not happen in Italy no more> sorry about mixing up names - bvienci not sandra.

pariswat

Well I do think PQ is right here.

However it could be that us Fodorites are in this age called 'ripe' and therefore not subject to whistling anymore.

Girls and young women still do get a lot of attention in Italy, from what I hear them say. Not all of them like it.

bvlenci

I have read so much nonsense in travel blogs written by visitors to Italy that I can't take that piece of evidence seriously, Palenq.

My daughter studied in Rome in 1994, 20 years before that, at a center for classical studies, along with a whole flock of young Americans, predominantly women. I don't think there was any lack of pulchritude in the group. Already at that time, catcalls and lip-smacking were rare. The one place my daughter encountered it was in Bologna and it was an old man.

Once upon a time, most young Italian women were rather strictly chaperoned, and whistling and catcalling were directed at women who were unaccompanied. My husband remembers those days, although he wasn't the type who engaged in that kind of behavior. He was a strictly brought up young man, and an engineer, to boot. I don't know when that epoch ended, and it probably ended later in the south than in the north, but it's definitely been over as far south as Rome since much longer ago than 2005.

Of course, there are still men who try to pick up women, both Italian and immigrant. They're much more subtle now. (Twenty years after my daughter studied in Rome, this past July, an old man engaged my daughter in conversation and invited her to come and have a coffee at a nearby bar, for example.)