travelgourmet

<i>How many of you so generous tippers give money to associations or charity funds.</i>

I do. I would also note that you are almost certainly barking up the wrong tree, given that the US usually ranks exceedingly high and France almost always ranks quite low, even by European standards.

<i>How many of you give time helping others (like being volunteers in hospitals ?).</i>

I don't believe in volunteering. Most groups doing important work need professionals, not amateurs, and the best contribution I can provide is a financial one.

<i>How many of you give money to beggars ?</i>

On occasion, yes. In many cases, though, I don't think it is a lack of money that sees many turn to begging.

<i>All I heard about people being asked their Amex card details before entering hospitals is also propaganda.</i>

For an emergency? Yes, those stories are pretty much propaganda. But, sure, I would think they'd ask for your credit card before giving you a tummy tuck.

Pvoyageuse

"I learned the language from a Parisian nun, who was the strictest teacher I've ever had."
Did you tip her?

Happygoin

Hey, Pvoyageuse! Fancy meeting you here...��

I can't believe people are still arguing the tip thing...the argument that won't die.

pariswat

Yup.
But what I like here is that comments stay.
For everyone to see.

Ok, time to sleep, I'm going to tip myself for having opened a bottle of water and served it into a glass and dodo.

Where is Sarastro btw ?

FrenchMystiqueTours

Hi. Should I tip a hotel maid if I come to Paris? I couldn't find the answer in the first 184 responses. Thanks!

justineparis

Pariswat.. great... we have 6th, 8th and 9th free.. then we go to Lyon for a few days.. then back by evening of 11th.. have 12 and 13 there too!

So hard to arrange stuff on here with no pm function.

kja

I find it deeply ironic that this thread, devoted to a question that is, to at least some extent, intertwined with a matter of etiquette, should include SO many posts that violate SO MANY norms governing the conduct of polite interpersonal exchange. What happened to priniciples like respect or tolerance? What about commenting on behaviors, not persons? Or gving others the benefit of the doubt?

I find reason, on an almost daily basis, to be genuinely impressed that so many people provide advice on Fodor’s with no recompense other than the pleasure they take in doing what they can to help other travelers or share their travel experiences. Of course, not all comments are equally helpful, but that seems to me to be very different than the fact that people take the time and effort to provide input. My kudos to every Fodorite who actually tries to be helpful, or who is willing to engage in polite discussion about travel-related issues.

My thanks to everyone who has tried to provide a respectful, constructive, informative comment about tipping or tipping norms. Or in lieu of that, at least a humorous aside. ;-)

pariswat

Hi
a little more nonsense and we'll reach 200 posts.

I loved this thread, I reread (fast) alloting people according to their answers in several groups :
I leave it to you...
US oriented, râleur, normal, funny, sympa, pinailleur, connard and énorme connard. And I added a special group for kja who should be a moderator. So, all in all, a quite normal forum.
I have found a travel forum where people behave like kja describes actually. There is even a button to click on 'report helpful' and people are encouraged to use it. Very civil forum.

What I find real nice here is that I only have 2 names in 'énorme connard'.

Gourmet, I found your answer quite human and I would like to asnwer.
First : my point was not to make a contest between US vs Europe. but I had in mind some people... who of course won't answer.

Second : I think you're wrong about not giving time yourself.

I've been a volunteer myself for a too short time and I'd like to share one experience with you all, not to show off, but to try to inject some, yes, humanity to counterbalance the amount of arrogance and stupidity and meanspirited offenses that we have had here (including probably some of my own).

I was with another volunteer (more experienced) and we were playing with a 12 years old girl, retarded mentally and disabled. She could hardly use her hands, but we made a necklace with her. She would choose a colour of a pearl and we would present the pearl and she would put it on a 'cord' and then we would go on.
It took us more than a full hour to make a small necklace.
Then I had to leave.
When I came back the week after, the other volunteer jumped at me and told me that the girl had been so proud to give the necklace to her mother as a present and that the mother had been so touched...
It stays as one of my best moment of pure joy.
I am not sure money can bring such happiness, albeit giving money already marks you a good man/woman.

Best regards Gourmet.

BritishCaicos

We'll have him after the 12th August before then he will have to settle for defenceless lions on holiday and low paid, untipped waiting staff at home.

travelgourmet

<i>These pathetic earnings are why we tip so 'lavishly' in North America.</i>

The wages paid waitstaff have nothing to do with why I tip in North America. I tip because that is the custom and the expectation.

FWIW, I don't consider the minimum wage in France to be appropriate compensation for a good waiter yet I don't tip (the often immigrant) waiters in France because that isn't the custom.

<i>Mark Bittman, a highly respected food person/writer</i>

I actually think he is just an okay cookbook writer (not remotely the best) that doesn't actually understand the issues he is now hectoring everyone else on.

wesleymarsh

I, too, agree this is an interesting thread. I read almost every word. I agree with the spirit of kja's post, but it seems to me, a lot words on this thread were mangled.

I also agree with CopperandJade's "this still makes me somewhat uncomfortable." No matter the effort made, I can't seem to crack the tipping code to a point where I'm comfortable.

There are plenty of mixed messages for tourists, and I've grown convinced that local businesses prefer the confusion. Businesses that cater to tourists know how to play the tipping game. After reading this thread, I'm convinced that those living in France and posting here are not visiting the places in France that I recently visited.

My sister and I did a first time visit to the Rhône-Alpes region recently. I have several threads on the subject, and I'm grateful to everyone who offered helpful information. We did a Michelin food swing from Lyon to Montmin. We found on several bills a statement that read "Gratuity Not Included in the Final Price." I remember one bill said something like, "If you received outstanding service from a particular individual, please include his or her name." My sister and I talked about how often we remember the server's name.

We stayed in several locations. One was an apartment. Daily maid service was offered at 45 Euro per day. My sister and I discussed this, and we booked the service for the middle of our visit. We had to pay it again at check-out.

We stayed in several small hotels. Some offered luggage assistance, some did not. One man who offered to park our car asked if we needed help with our luggage. He looked to be in his 70's, so I said no thank you. He had a look of disappointment. After the second flight of stairs, we regretted the decision. In one hotel, I asked if there was someone to help with luggage, and the petite young girl behind the desk said she could help, and I passed, chalking it up to chivalry.

We stayed in a luxury hotel in Talloires, which had a Michelin restaurant. There was a French business hosting a small conference there during our stay. Our hotel bill was left in our room the night before check-out, and it addressed the subject of gratuities. It said they were not included in the final price. If we needed help with any calculation, please see the reception desk.

It seems to me customs can change as economies change, and the customs of tourist businesses don't bear much relation to the local life. My sister and I noticed similar changes in Italy on a recent visit. Some restaurant bills included a service charge, while others did not and stated so.

We got the feeling that by mentioning the word gratuity in writing, we're being encouraged to consider leaving one. Maybe this is something presented only to English speakers, but there are plenty of travelers who speak several languages, so how could a business get away with that?

It's all very confusing.

pariswat

Hi Copper,
Thanks !
I'm no longer on TA - something both TA and myself agreed on.

Robert2533

Lets go for one more posting! Tipping in Spain, by locals, fell dramatically a few of years into the current crisis. Before then, Spaniards would always leave a tip when having lunch or dinner (usually 5€ maximum, regardless of the price of the meal). That doesn't happen very often now, but they will always leave the small change when stopping in for a wine and pintxos (tapas).

Also in Spain, a service is always included in the restaurant bill, and a service charge is always added for larger groups.

And as far as I can remember, after more then 40 years of traveling through France, service is included in all restaurant bills, although at some places in Paris we've overheard the waiter saying (to an uniformed tourist) that the service charge is not included and a tip should be added. These places we tend to keep away from.

pariswat

Wesley
I'm Belgian.
I speak French.
I live half my time in France.
I go to restaurants about 150 times a year.
About 100 times a year in hotels.
Most of those in France.
In France mostly in Paris and in Provence region.
In touristy areas, in industrial areas, in cities or town close to industrial areas.
I get french menus.
I never leave a tip.
I am never asked to leave a tip.
Nobody ever pulled a face on me because I didn't leave a tip.
Same with all my colleagues who travel a lot.

When giving expenses to the bookkeeping, tips (given in France) are not accepted because they would be refused by authorities.

If I were owning a restaurant, I'd put on my menu that tips are not included, obviously. US people love to tip, feel unconfortable to tip, so obvisouly it is game for them.

And since US wants to leave a tip - why go against it.
Too bad that in the US we are not allowed to not leave a tip. We were in Mexico, we left tips about everywhere.

200 posts !
Time to close, as it seems that
'Il n'est de pire sourd que celui qui ne veut entendre'

Do we switch to what you wear ?

pariswat

feel unconfortable *not* to tip - some will say that they can't understand my poor english.

chartley

Thank you WesleyMarsh for a thoughtful and temperate post. I have to say that I have never seen statements like that on any bill I have received in France, or in any other European country. Perhaps the hotels you visited had more American customers because of their Michelin-starred restaurants, and saw a financial advantage in moving towards American practices. I wonder if French visitors would take the hint.

Although tipping is probably more common in Britain than in other European countries, it is normally in the 10-12% range, and is based on friendly, efficient service, rather than something outstanding and exceptional. In many establishments, tips are pooled amongst all the staff working on that shift, so that chefs, plate washers and waiting staff all get a proportion. Personally, I prefer places where all the staff take responsibility for the service I receive. If a member of staff walks past my table empty-handed and ignores dirty plates or an empty bottle, then that is bad service on the part of the restaurant in my book.

We stayed in a hotel in Copenhagen recently where we were offered a 100 Kroner voucher (roughly £10 or $15 US) if we did not have our room serviced. The voucher could be used in the hotel restaurant. We took advantage of that. It saved us having to remove all those cushions from the bed a second time.

BritishCaicos

WesleyMarsh

We (European Fodor types) live here.

We get fed up with creeping tipping in Europe. Some up market hotels/restaurants in Europe are playing on the culture of non European visitors.

In Briatin, there is a national minimum wage, as an employer it is a criminal offence not to pay that wage. There are people out there with far more demanding jobs than waiters who still receive the same wage.

In all sincerity, please, please Amercian visitors if you are going to tip someone 20% don't give it to the waiter. Walk into the nearest nursing home, on the way back to your hotel. Give that 20% to the night staff, who ,to my knowledge have one of the most demanding jobs imaginable but still usually receive the minimum wage. Both employees will usually earn the same rate.

chartely : I don't agree. Tipping is more common in London. There's probably only a couple of thousand British people live in London anyway.

Outside London and the further North you travel, tipping is much less common.

NewbE

<We stayed in a hotel in Copenhagen recently where we were offered a 100 Kroner voucher (roughly £10 or $15 US) if we did not have our room serviced. >
This is a great idea! I have never seen it in the US. What I have seen are cards encouraging guests to reuse towels, which we are happy to do, but in our experience maids usually ignore that and give fresh towels anyway.

Oh god! It's because they expect a tip!! We've created a monster!

Tulips

Why is it so hard for some to believe locals on this? As Kerouac, Pariswat and others say, French people do not tip.
Wesley is correct in saying that some businesses play the tipping game. If they can get some additional money out of a foreigner by mentioning gratuities, they will.
Have you ever heard a waiter in France tell a French person that tips are not included? 'Service compris' means exactly that.

NewbE

<As Kerouac, Pariswat and others say, French people do not tip. >
Have you actually read this thread? Because a lot of people are saying that French people DO tip in France!

<Have you ever heard a waiter in France tell a French person that tips are not included?>
To which I reply that Robert23 posted this:<although at some places in Paris we've overheard the waiter saying (to an uniformed tourist) that the service charge is not included and a tip should be added. >

You have to pick and choose whom you believe, but don't pretend there aren't (at least) two sides. And wading in without actually taking the time to read the points made is useless.