lyb

Of course, they are not scum..should we call the people who are doing the rioting...gentlemen who are decision challenged? After all, we must always be politically correct nowadys... they are being forced to do this, it will make everythign so much better for them...now everyone will embrace them....oh, please!! they are SCUM who have found a reason to make trouble!!!

Sarah

I just think you owe it to yourself to learn a bit more about this issue. A little dumb to think you can size something up based on one day of news stories? Violence spreading to 300 towns, not something you can attribute to bad manners. This is overwhelming the French government but yet you a fodors poster can figure it out in one morning?...it can be sized up to the individuals involved being scum. That is just dumb.

As far as politically correct goes? Kind of putting yourself in the dumb area even using language like that. I would be more nervous about that but heck what do I know. I am a woman's libber LOL.

Sue4

Sarah, I am NOT a racist, and I resent being called one by you. And you have no idea what "I know about" or don't. I lived in Europe immediately following WWII, as well as the American South during the 60's - and know exactly what racism is about, and I deplore it, as well as I deplore the Ku Klux Klan, "Nazi Youth" groups, and all their ilk. You can go on making excuses for these people as long as you want (and I'm sure you will), but I won't.

lyb

Sarah,

Umm...so you know that I've only been reading about this in one day? Interesting...you must be a psychic...though a rather faulty one since I have been reading about this since day one!!!

As far as dumb...again assuming that I or anyone else is saying that this is all happening ONLY because they are scum is THE dumb thing!!! This is a very complex situation that of course, only you can understand, oh please!!!!

crefloors

Things like these riots have a way of getting a life of their own. I'm thinking that any political reason, or any so called "justification" for this violence has been long forgotten. When this is over, the pundents on all sides will be coming up with reasons, or excuses for these actions.

Heidi1961

My husband and I leave for Paris and Brittany on 23 Nov. We had hoped to visit the St. Denis basilica during our trip. I don't mean to sound trite, but can someone please verify if the violence has spread to the area near this site? Naturally, I am concerned about the overall situation, but in a practical sense, I would like to be realistic about our travel plans and avoid areas that are involved. I have also heard about car bombings in Normandy--anything in Britanny? (Specifically near Mont. St. Michel?)

JJ5

As a person who has lived through and see riots first hand, I am incredulous at reading some of these posts.

Within one day I saw a neighborhood burn down, we lost a family butchershop business, and a small restaurant- 1968 in Chicago. It was after the assasination of Martin Luther King, Jr. I saw a man pulled from the cab of a truck within 50 feet of me and STOMPED to death in front of my eyes for the electronics on his truck. It was the worst thing I have ever witnessed in a very "interesting" long life.

Some of the active participants of these acts were people I had known as customers and sometimes fair and "ok", normal people. They were not all poor and disenfranchised by any means, either.

To make the kind of excuses for this kinds of acts. BAH! It's just like saying that Hitler's Crystalnight was just a bunch of rowdies on a tear after some drink. It's far more complicated than that, and there is no excuse for such behavior- under any circumstances.

Rufus, you are SO right about the cultural dichotomy involved within the philosophy. And the economic belief systems and politics of all of Europe will not easily meld with the immigration rates occurring.

Robespierre

I don't know whether this is a "reason" or an "excuse" - but urban rioting is usually caused by a society having too many people with not enough money. An event like the Rodney King verdict or a police brutality incident will trigger the burning and looting, but it always comes back to poverty and the lack of opportunity. The French Revolution itself was the "have-nots" taking out their frustration on the privileged.

The millions of French Arabs and Africans who are employed and earning a living and taking care of their families are NOT burning cars. They're resting up for tomorrow's work. I think importing hordes of people into a country whose pie has already been sliced up is a mistake, but I'm not an economist.

Sarah

who has made any excuses here JJ5?

Its more complicated than "they are scum". "they are scum". More complicated than your or my experience of violence. That is all I am saying here

opaldog

I have been reading this thread from the start and have also kept up with the news from France. Perhaps if you haven't traveled to Paris or France you would not be aware of the projects/slums in the suburbs of Paris and other French cities, but I have certainly known of the simmering "situation" in France for some time. It appears to be a situation of an economic underclass that is made up of a majority of minority people. They are living in what seems to be deplorable conditions. We can all safely sit at our computers and give our opinions and condemn those who do not agree with our opinions. We are the fortunate ones. We are on this board because we have the ability to travel and most likely work or have worked and support ourselves and our families. Nobody condones violence, but some of the opinions that are being put forth make those that type them in sound foolish.

lyb

Would Rosa Parks have made such an impact if she burned the bus? I don't think so....I was in Paris for barely a week and I could see right away that there were definite separations between groups, but this is not a problem that will be resolved by violence, and won't be solved for decades if ever!

degas

Right - I get it now. So very simple. If we had only not called Hitler and Nazi and Stalin a Communist, they would have felt much better about themselves and not murdered millions. It was all our fault for not being sensitive enough.

Sarah

Heidi I am heading there on the 22nd. There is a national train strike planned for November 21. The larger issue for your trip, I am sorry to say.

In regards to St. Denis Cite (sp) French News 2 said "residents are sleeping with one eye open". The alarm they expressed was after dark. I would make other plans for this area though. I probably will not take the train in from CDG (looming strike +). As the conductors have asked for extra protection. But I don't think we are facing too many risks yet in central Paris.

I really am not worried about going.

winesipper

Robespierre, you are on the money with that that observation. We are a world of have's and have not's, and France will not be the last to be affected by rioting by those in need.

It is clear from French news reports that France has taken in more immigrants than it can socially support on top of its own 10% unemployment.

I'm in central Paris now (7th near the 6th)and see no signs of trouble at this moment.

Tom

Graziella5b

Can someone enlight me: The young people responsable for these attrocities do they have free medical care?, do they have free shcools and high schools?, do they receive social wellfare checks ( I read some place aprox of us1200 monthly)?,......On the whole of France how many unemployed people there is, I read 10%, so if my math is ok there are much more people unemployed who are NOt rioting that the ones that are burning cars, schools, ambulances, cars, business....
Can someone from France tell me please.I would love to know the facts.

PrincessOfPenguins

They do get a free education... I was just told by someone from France that these youth come from cultures where women are "nothing." Men and boys are taught not to accept women as authority figures and most teachers are women. And if they do get so lucky to get a job, they tend to lose their jobs once they have to obey a female boss.

peeky

What are the minority people trained to do? What skills do they have that the French population are ignoring? What do they give to French society?

Sarah

Again no one is defending violent behavior, just saying you can't size up a cause based on your own reaction to violence. And there was significant violence through out the country during the civil rights movement of the 1960's. I don't think it defined the movement but I don't think you can look at that period of history and ignor it either. I remember race riots in my own community as a kid and I lived in a rural suburb of Philadelphia. Watt't riots in LA. just what pops into my head.

hdm

I'm always in over my head in a political discussion but I really don't see how you can compare the situation in France with the civil rights movement. Those black Americans were not immigrants -- they were Americans of many numbers of generations supporting the white economy with their work. My understanding of successful immigrant populations is that you live in the best possible accommodation you can manage, you work hard at whatever job you can get, you scrimp and save so you can make a better life for your kids, you support each other in your ethnic group, and you force your kids to go to school and study hard and when they don't, you give them a whack because you're killing yourself to make a better life for them and their children. You maintain some control over your kids and don't let them run wild. You obey the laws of the land that welcomed you and you try to maintain the best parts of your culture while adopting the best parts of the culture you've joined. You learn the language if you can and if you can't, you make sure your children do. You try to become an asset to your new country, not a liability. You remember that along with rights come responsibilities.

Life is terribly hard for immigrants -- that's the way it's always been. But it's better, or at least offers better prospects, than wherever you've come from. Someone above said something about 'it's easy for us to sit at our computers...'. Well, remember that we're only two generations (a scant 50 years) away from when many of us were immigrants. So if you're sitting at your computer, in your nice house, with food in the fridge and money in the bank, it's because your grandparents didn't come to wherever you live and burn it down. They struggled and worked hard and made your parents work hard, and that's how you got where you are today. Nobody (as my father would say) handed it to your grandparents on a silver platter.

Micheline

Unemployment on the estates is up to three times the national average of 10 percent.