Paris Rioting
Nov 5th, 2005, 04:54 PM
#41
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I think the entire French economic model may be at risk.
They have chosen a high wage-high unemployment posture that is now crumbling. They just can't produce enough new jobs. Large numbers of poor, unskilled immigrants who have high birth rates spell trouble now and even more in the future.
They have chosen a high wage-high unemployment posture that is now crumbling. They just can't produce enough new jobs. Large numbers of poor, unskilled immigrants who have high birth rates spell trouble now and even more in the future.
Nov 5th, 2005, 04:59 PM
#43
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This touches on the very recent vehicle burnings right in the city of Paris: http://fr.news.yahoo.com/05112005/5/...france-et.html
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:01 PM
#44
I think this is wakeup call. we embrace the people to come here but we lack proper housing and keep increasing outsourcing jobs that makes for alot of unemployment, and also rsentment when one of "those"peopl gets a job that you think you should have. Very complex, indeed.
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:02 PM
#45
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The most distressing thing is the total dithering by the French government. Talk about fiddling while the city burns. I'm astonished that Chirac hasn't even addressed the nation since the riots began. What's he doing?!!!
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:30 PM
#47
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I think a lot of people don't understand the whole issue of why there is rioting. I am not going to comment on those that have made some comments that could be deemed racist. Obviously, I cannot change their mind.
I think that it appears that perhaps France has been showing its citizens some of what the US has been guilty of showing its own citizens. Maybe what is going on over there is similar to what the US did to some of its own people in earlier decades and centuries. I feel sorry for the people in those neighborhoods, for violence to occur like this, there must be a lot of unrest and displeasure with the govern,ent.
It is also sad that the US take on the riots doesn't seem to really be showing what is going on. The story we are given seems to be missing info. I do hope that the riots end soon.....and I feel so horrible about the woman who was burned. That was totally unnecessary.
I think that it appears that perhaps France has been showing its citizens some of what the US has been guilty of showing its own citizens. Maybe what is going on over there is similar to what the US did to some of its own people in earlier decades and centuries. I feel sorry for the people in those neighborhoods, for violence to occur like this, there must be a lot of unrest and displeasure with the govern,ent.
It is also sad that the US take on the riots doesn't seem to really be showing what is going on. The story we are given seems to be missing info. I do hope that the riots end soon.....and I feel so horrible about the woman who was burned. That was totally unnecessary.
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:34 PM
#48
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We are at the cutting edge of the major cultural conflaguration that will mark the 21st Century. Just as WWI, WWII, and the Cold War did the 20th.
Instead of modern, more or less totalitarian governments against modern, more or less democratic governments, the 21st Century conflicts will pit the modern westernized, generally wealthy, secular and democratic world against the time-warped 14th Century, African/Middle-eastern/south Asian, often fanatically religious and generally poor, non-democratic world.
Overall, Democratic cultures won in the 20th Century. Who knows what will happen in the 21st?
Especially when so many people in the westernized, democratic world are in denial about the inevitable clash of two philosophies of life that are almost polar opposites--one that provides more freedoms than people ever could have imagined (social, religious, financial, etc.) at the cost of losing traditional social patterns and increased social isolation; the other that provides the comforting tightly woven socio/relgious fabric, but at the cost of that very fabric suffocating individual development and innovative thinking that permit the above mentioned freedoms (including generally widespread prosperity, good medical care networks, readily available goods and services, modern educational systems, etc.).
It's not just a matter of the west needing to give more money to poor countries--the fact is that the very religous and social structures that these countries cling to so fanatically make it practically impossible for them to become prosperous and modernized. Everything is a tradeoff--you can eliminate or give only lip service to the old gods and oppressive social systems, enter the modern world of logic and science, and provide a higher standard of living to your people. All at the cost of tearing apart the comfortable social fabric. Or you can cling to that comfortable social fabric, kowtow to the old gods, ensure that half your population (women) are nothing more than chattel, and curse those who have more than you do while you starve and remain in ignorance.
Everything is a tradeoff. Ask Japan and Korea--they made the jump; with many bumps and bruises, but they did it.
Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy century.
Instead of modern, more or less totalitarian governments against modern, more or less democratic governments, the 21st Century conflicts will pit the modern westernized, generally wealthy, secular and democratic world against the time-warped 14th Century, African/Middle-eastern/south Asian, often fanatically religious and generally poor, non-democratic world.
Overall, Democratic cultures won in the 20th Century. Who knows what will happen in the 21st?
Especially when so many people in the westernized, democratic world are in denial about the inevitable clash of two philosophies of life that are almost polar opposites--one that provides more freedoms than people ever could have imagined (social, religious, financial, etc.) at the cost of losing traditional social patterns and increased social isolation; the other that provides the comforting tightly woven socio/relgious fabric, but at the cost of that very fabric suffocating individual development and innovative thinking that permit the above mentioned freedoms (including generally widespread prosperity, good medical care networks, readily available goods and services, modern educational systems, etc.).
It's not just a matter of the west needing to give more money to poor countries--the fact is that the very religous and social structures that these countries cling to so fanatically make it practically impossible for them to become prosperous and modernized. Everything is a tradeoff--you can eliminate or give only lip service to the old gods and oppressive social systems, enter the modern world of logic and science, and provide a higher standard of living to your people. All at the cost of tearing apart the comfortable social fabric. Or you can cling to that comfortable social fabric, kowtow to the old gods, ensure that half your population (women) are nothing more than chattel, and curse those who have more than you do while you starve and remain in ignorance.
Everything is a tradeoff. Ask Japan and Korea--they made the jump; with many bumps and bruises, but they did it.
Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy century.
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:55 PM
#51
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Milliodollar,
Different from the US , the muslims people now rioting in France were not forced to go there. For the most part they cling to a social structure contrary to the the country where they live.
I can't feel much empathy for people that were embraced by France and given a home and now riot. And, believe me, I'm no cheerleader of the french.
Different from the US , the muslims people now rioting in France were not forced to go there. For the most part they cling to a social structure contrary to the the country where they live.
I can't feel much empathy for people that were embraced by France and given a home and now riot. And, believe me, I'm no cheerleader of the french.
Nov 5th, 2005, 05:57 PM
#52
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I'm scheduled to arrive in paris Tuesday for nine days. Still planning to go. I am assuming I'll be safe if I stay in the city and am careful, especially at night. Is there anyone on this board who is there right now? Does it feel "normal?" I don't want to cancel, but also don't want to be foolish.
Nov 5th, 2005, 06:22 PM
#54
This is another example of how complex and difficult. There was a muslin woman who refused to remove her head covering when being photographed for a driver's liscence. That is wrong but yet, I believe she should wear what she wants at school or elswhere.
Nov 5th, 2005, 06:53 PM
#57
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This is from Reuters, an hour ago:
<i>
The unrest reached Paris late Saturday. Hamon had no immediate information on the neighborhoods where the vehicles were torched. Paris police headquarters said three cars were damaged by fire in the Republique section, northeast of City Hall.</i>
Avignon, Bordeaux, Lille, Normandy, it is spreading. I am just heartsick at what is going on in France .
<i>
The unrest reached Paris late Saturday. Hamon had no immediate information on the neighborhoods where the vehicles were torched. Paris police headquarters said three cars were damaged by fire in the Republique section, northeast of City Hall.</i>
Avignon, Bordeaux, Lille, Normandy, it is spreading. I am just heartsick at what is going on in France .
Nov 5th, 2005, 06:59 PM
#58
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Reading Rufus' post, one gets the impression that he's saying that Islamic society and Islam is mutually incompatible with progress and so-called "enlightened" western social thinking-that too, is an overly simplistic, incorrect and naive point of view-not to mention racist.
Have you ever been to Islamic countries? Egypt? Morocco? Tunisia? Seen how the middle class there lives? Just some examples of modernizing societies that also happen to be Islamic, but yet, have their fundamentalist, close-minded factions-who stubbornly want to impose their beliefs on the majority, who cling to the old ways, and who use religion as a basis for stymying any sort of progressive ideas -sound familiar?
How about the "creationism" crowd here in the US? Or the issue of making health care money available to third-world countries contingent upon the country adhering to OUR country's religiously based point of view on how the money should be used? Is this type of fundamentalist thinking so very different than those "backward" Islamic societies who "cling" to their "social fabric"? I think not-I don't have the answer, but I know the Islam v. the West type of thinking is WAY off base. Two of the most insidiously repressive (and dangerous) societies in the Middle East-Iran and Saudi Arabia- are ALSO two of the richest.
And the rioters in France, just like the London bombers-are, for the most part, the disaffected second-generation YOUTH, who belong neither in the old world or the new...who have no job prospects in a culture where they are not truly accepted-THAT is really the problem here-joblessness and alienation from the culture in which they live.
Have you ever been to Islamic countries? Egypt? Morocco? Tunisia? Seen how the middle class there lives? Just some examples of modernizing societies that also happen to be Islamic, but yet, have their fundamentalist, close-minded factions-who stubbornly want to impose their beliefs on the majority, who cling to the old ways, and who use religion as a basis for stymying any sort of progressive ideas -sound familiar?
How about the "creationism" crowd here in the US? Or the issue of making health care money available to third-world countries contingent upon the country adhering to OUR country's religiously based point of view on how the money should be used? Is this type of fundamentalist thinking so very different than those "backward" Islamic societies who "cling" to their "social fabric"? I think not-I don't have the answer, but I know the Islam v. the West type of thinking is WAY off base. Two of the most insidiously repressive (and dangerous) societies in the Middle East-Iran and Saudi Arabia- are ALSO two of the richest.
And the rioters in France, just like the London bombers-are, for the most part, the disaffected second-generation YOUTH, who belong neither in the old world or the new...who have no job prospects in a culture where they are not truly accepted-THAT is really the problem here-joblessness and alienation from the culture in which they live.
Nov 5th, 2005, 07:06 PM
#59
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The "clash of civilistions" is a myth, far from the truth. It's not civilisations or religion, it's poverty of one half of the earth against the wealth of the other half. Whatever the southern coutries do, thy can't compete. Economies havily dependent on farming compete against industrialized nations who subsidize exports and sell their products on local markets for less than it would cost to produce them by the local farmers. Who can run a farm if he is sure to loose money EVERY year. It's a crime tolerated by all of the western world. Try to protect you market from dumping, they tell you it's backward and a violation of trade agreements! People are poor, because WE keep them poor.
Nov 5th, 2005, 07:09 PM
#60
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Then these "youths" should go back to the country whose culture they identify with and find a job in that country. NO country is obligated to find a "job" for any human being. Assimilate--as the Irish,Italians,etc who landed on Ellis Island did-- or get out.
