Micheline

Ok Manouche I get it. I wouldn't want short term rentals in my new condo building either.

flpab

I live in Florida and most every apartment/condo building on the coast has rental units. It is part of our life here. I know one of my clients has someone new in the condo next to her all the time but they follow the rules of the building. We have snow birds and they rent out their units in the summer to friends, family and people they don't know. Many are managed by property managers.
Anyhoo, renting a big house from airbnb and it is a resort/ski town and there are so many airbnb rentals in this town. The people there love the tourist that ski/raft/hike and spend money in their town. I want a house not a hotel for a week to entertain and kick back. Not cheap or I would stay with family that live in said town. Just like more room and privacy.
My reasoning for telling Emmamarie to look at citadines.com or http://www.adagio-city.com is because of the people of Paris that are trying to do away with apartment rentals. I just don't want you to get there and have no where to stay.

wesleymarsh

I live in a building with over 200 residents. Turnover is high, because my building is popular with real estate flippers. Purchase prices keep going up, and young people want to live in my building, at least for a year or two. I have no idea who owns, who rents, or who sublets. I barely know all the tenants who live on my floor, and I've been living in the building for decades. If my vacation rental neighbors behaved as I do when I travel, then I would welcome them to the neighborhood and treat them like a guest, exactly the way I would want to be treated. I would prefer vacation renters like me over some of the neighbors I currently have.

I have met several foreign-speaking people in my lobby with luggage, who seemed lost and unable to find or figure out the locks to their apartment. I have no idea if they were vacation renters, but I behaved like a gentleman and assisted them.

"Not in my backyard" suggests that vacation renters are undesirable people. Perhaps some "party" house in the Caribbean was the apple that spoiled a cart, but the stats and data absolutely do not support this myth. The vast majority of folks who rent vacation apartments in big cities are known as slow travelers, and these people are among the most experienced and considerate travelers on the planet. I am one of them.

Just because you can save some money on a vacation rental versus a hotel, doesn't mean the cost is cheap. A decent apartment with one decent bed in Europe will easily command 100 Euro per night. One week's vacation rent in Europe is more than what most Americans pay a month for housing. If you want to travel reasonably well these days, you need to be prepared to spend a lot of money. And by reasonably well, I don't mean luxury.

My most recent Airbnb host in Venice said that his Airbnb customers were among the best he's ever had. He said he believed their review process is the key to its success. Both customers and hosts are strongly encouraged to leave feedback, and almost everyone does. My host requested our passports. I assume he reported our presence to the proper authorities. I assume the property is a privately-owned, legal rental. It was one of the best vacation rental experiences my sister and I ever had.

My sister and I spent a lot of money to "visit" Venice. We ate in ten restaurants, which alone cost $4,000 (including liquor). We shopped locally for breakfast and snack items and we visited numerous museums and churches. And we bought a lot of gifts to hand out to family at Christmas. It is said that slow travelers are great for local economies. My checkbook balance suggests this is true.

nukesafe

Very well said, Wesley!

Nikki

Manouche, I understand why you don't want vacation rentals in your building. But the arguments you are using against such rentals by saying that people don't like them and don't get more space and don't get good apartments are retufed by the daily testimony on this message board. Many people here have been renting apartments in Paris and elsewhere repeatedly and enjoy the experience.

As others have said, I get more space in an apartment and more privacy and comfort than in a hotel room. I will only use a hotel if I can't find an apartment because my stay is too short.

I am sorry that Paris and other cities are going through a crisis of too many vacation rentals, and I will personally feel the loss if this ceases to be an option. I understand about the housing shortage in Paris and in New York and that this is an action the cities are taking to try to alleviate the problem. It will have a negative impact on my own stays in Paris, which will be shorter in duration and less frequent if I have to stay in hotels.

I am waiting to see how this situation resolves itself before my next trip. But nobody will convince me that I am better off in a hotel. I have tried both options, and I vastly prefer an apartment for a trip of more than a couple of days.

manouche

My sincere apologies to the OP, whom I suspect is long gone. But very sorry anyhow, for contributing to this thread going so far off-track. I hope she finds a nice place to stay.

Here's the last of my tirade, since we are obviously beating a dead horse.
Many people enjoy their apartment experience, many do not - but you won't hear much from the latter, unless it was really terrible.

Not everyone is as considerate a visitor as one would hope for - you can't assume otherwise, just because you happen to be nice. You can't say "the vast majority", unless you can back that up with official numbers. We attend monthly Mayoral meetings in both Hotel de Ville and the 3rd arrondissement, where this is one of the most serious topics.

There are many more renters who are concerned with getting what they want at a price they can afford, than those who care about "slow travel". I wish there were more of this "slow" type of visitor - who will always be welcome anywhere they go - but that's just not the case, at least not in Paris. The Mayor's task force has infiltrated the largest internet listing services, and reports that the average price and number of guests per rental in Paris is 875EU/wk for 4 persons - about 1/3 of the parties will include 2 children, the average clients stay 4.5 nights. Too many people, travelling for the wrong reasons (too fast, too cheap, too "bucket-list") - have spoiled things for everyone.

When we went on vacation, we used to rent our house in the US via VRBO, and we were also SERVAS hosts, back in the day - anybody remember that? - and it was terrific. AirBnB started out as a similar idea, but people got greedy. Same with apartments.

Nobody minds too much if a resident rents out his place a few weeks during the year - this is even legal, in many cases, including in Paris. But foreign investors - who usually own multiple properties that they do not even visit - do not participate in the daily community life of the coop they bought into. They don't care who they rent to, or what goes on in their properties. Unfortunately, this is the majority of the rentals in Paris, most of which are owned by Italian, Russian, British/Australians and American nationals who are not domiciled in France and do not pay taxes on this revenue in France. This is a fact, and these are the people who are being targeted by the Mayor's task force. Illegal sublets are being reported by neighbors, gardiens and even people who had a negative experience while staying there. Anything that appears on the internet is being examined by the authorities in Paris. For this reason, I would recommend being very cautious about renting in the far-distant future.

Just a note about VRBO, etc - HomeAway bought VRBO and 12 other listing companies in 2006 - most independent owners were forced out of listing with HA/VRBO etc, since their advertising rates skyrocketed, and they are forced to sell HA products, such as insurance, etc. HA's marketing strategy was to sell the idea of "living like a local" - a brilliant move, especially to people who have no idea what that actually means.

flpab

Thank you Wesley, being a Floridian we are use to the same. Tourism is a huge trickle down industry and we appreciate the visitors we get in our state.
Emmamarie has heard the pros and cons of renting in Paris now.

emmamarie

Wow!!

To tell you all the honest truth I had no idea about the problems you have spoken about. I didn't realise there were so many illegal rentals - i just assumed that these websites such as airbnb and vacation in paris etc were all legitimate companies with apartments for rent - i did not think for one minute that they may not be legal. I have found all of these posts very interesting.

We are from Australia and have never been to Europe as a family before. We were considering an apartment because i thought it would be nice to be able to make some of our own meals or at least breakfast in the morning and maybe wash clothes before we leave to go to our next place. We certainly wouldn't be causing any trouble in people's buildings - we plan to be out sightseeing all day and then going home to bed - particularly the kids. I have been looking at all of your suggestions and website suggestions - no decision yet

I do thank you all again for your comments

Sojourntraveller

Wesley, your comments are about as perfect an example of situational ethics and how someone can self-justify just about any decision they make.

But I will accept that you really believe what you are saying. That is you have convinced yourself that what you are saying is right and you are doing no wrong if you rent an illegal rental.

Now answer one question for me. There are legal rentals in Paris, I have provided links for emmamarie and anyone else to look at that will lead to those legal rentals. So here is my question, why not rent an apartment legally and make sure you do not rent illegally? What possible justification can you have for that?

You do not have to ask for tax returns,etc. all you have to do is rent a chambre d'hote or gite that is registered with one of the associations. These are legal rentals in Paris:
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident=

Let's leave why someone prefers an apartment and all the nonsense about class and who should be able to visit a place or not. Those are simply red herrings.

Let's concentrate on this issue. Airbnb are well aware that a large percentage of their listings are illegal rentals. What are we to make of their behaviour? What do you think of someone who knowingly provides a way for someone to attempt to break the law? In most countries, there are laws that call that 'aiding and abetting'. How is Airbnb's behaviour any different? They KNOW.

Airbnb refuse to remove listing that are shown to be illegal rentals. Get it? They REFUSE to remove those listings. They hide behind the lawyers by saying, 'it is the owners responsibility to insure they comply with local laws etc.' But in reality, what they are doing is saying they are not responsible for their OWN actions.

Airbnb can remove a listing in a second but that won't make them a profit and that is what it is all about, MONEY, not providing the traveller with an alternative to a hotel. Airbnb aid and abet the illegal rental and those who rent those illegal rentals (that's the traveller)ALSO aid and abet the crime.

Listen to manouche, a Paris resident who has first hand knowledge of what is happening. Rent legally and until Airbnb starts removing illegal rentals from their listings, do not contribute to illegal rentals.

Sojourntraveller

Last sentence should read: Rent legally and avoid using Airbnb until they start removing illegal rentals from their lsitings, do not contribue to illegal rentals.

NO ONE can justify renting illegally, Just read any of the comments by anyone above. Not ONE person has given a justification for renting illegally. Not ONE. A lot of noise about a lot of other things associated with renting and travel but not ONE sentence that tries to justify renting illegally. So where is the disagreement? What are people actually disagreeing with?

The only thing I can see anyone disagreeing with is that it is the individual's responsibility to make sure that they do not rent an illegal rental. If you are not responsible for your own actions, who is?

Christina

<< I don't know anyone who, once they've rented an apartment for a vacation, chooses to go back to a hotel. >>

Well, you know one now. But the point is this isn't black and white. I don't always do one thing or always do another. It depends on how long I am in a place. I would never rent a vacation apartment for short time periods like so many people on Fodors want to do (less than 5 days). There are too many hassles with renting an apt which so many don't mention, and too much financial risk. It's just too much trouble for a few days and you are supposed to be there to see the city, not spending time in an apt. Also, I travel solo most of the time, this is the big issue which many don't seem to understand. There is no need for a lot of space if you are alone. For a single person, hotel rooms often are just as cheap, or cheaper than renting an apt without the hassles (prepayment, security deposits, cleaning, not being able to check in early, you name it). I have rent modest apts and they are not great, none of them has actually been as nice in some ways as a 3* hotel.

Most people who do this to it to get more space for less money, it seems to me, and that is what they talk about the most. Plus eating a lot, such as snacking and eating breakfast, etc., neither of which I do, so I don't have a need to have food on hand 24/7 in a frig. They talk about "living like a local" and barely know a word of the language in the place they are visiting. That isn't living like a local.

And I have rented several times near others who are not great tenants, they are noisy. Once this was an American family with children who were allowed to yell and make all kind of noise, of course, and another time next to an apt with four loud young German men who drank a lot and played loud music. And I know they were vacation renters because I encounted them in the hallway. So the idea that people who do this are so considerate because they want cheaper places than a hotel and more space doesn't even make sense to me. From a security point of view, I sure wouldn't want to live in an apt building where the owner was giving out the keys to the building to anyone online who answered their ad, with turnover constantly, would you?

So I can see pros and cons, and I think those who don't care if it is illegal see it as a victimless crime and like many who view white collar crime, or just none of their business what the owner is doing legally (such as whether they have permits or even declare the income). I can understand that also, actually, and I have some of those tendencies myself (I don't view this as bad as someone robbing people on the street, for example). People don't monitor the taxes of their hotel owners, either.

If Paris is serious about this, they should just do what Barcelona does. They issue permit numbers and then ads should display the permit and you can check it. This isn't the same as a "B&B" (ref. listing give), because there is no owner there. B&Bs aren't the same thing at all, they are just competitors to hotels.

Hez

I justify using Airbnb the same way I justify businesses that only take cash. Could they possibly be breaking the law by not reporting the income? Sure. Is it my ethical responsibility to ensure that they aren't? Nope. In both situations I am entering into a good faith contract and in both I believe my only responsibility is to hold up my end of that contract. If there was the potential that some actual grievous harm might ensue from my engaging in the contract then that would be a different situation.

wesleymarsh

>>average clients stay 4.5 nights<<

Let's be clear, "slow travelers" do not stay 4.5 nights anywhere. An average 4.5 night stay is the ordinary tourist visit, which is a completely different classification.

Hosts who prefer to attract slow travelers usually require a 7-night minimum. These also tend to be the better apartments.

>>Wesley, your comments are about as perfect an example of situational ethics and how someone can self-justify just about any decision they make.<<

I self-justify driving slightly above the speed limit everyday, even though it's against the law. I double-park when I unload groceries because the city council changed the law recently, and they removed the parking meters directly in front of my building. I jaywalk, too, because it's often more convenient. If ever local officials decide to enforce these laws, then I suppose I might feel a need to reevaluate my habits. I certainly don't view these decisions as a moral or ethical dilemma. However, when driving past a school bus with flashing lights, I stop. When entering a school zone, I drive the precise limit. When I hear a siren, I pull to the side of the road, but I'm often the only one who does.

There are plenty of laws on the books in certain U.S. jurisdictions that most reasonable people would agree are crazy. Alcohol was once illegal. In many places, gambling, too. I'm an educated adult, I have a working brain, and I decide what is right for me.

I agree with Hez. If an apartment owner deals with cash only, as many on VRBO do, I don't think it's my duty to question the owner about his taxes. His taxes are none of my business. If I want the apartment, and I've done due diligence on its reputation, then I might book it. As Christina said, it would never occur to me to question a hotel of any size about its taxes. Furthermore, large hotel chains employ creative accountants to minimize tax liability. I don't know anyone who wants to pay more taxes.

If Paris decides to issue registration verification for legal vacation rentals, then customers can make a safer and smarter choice. I'm all for that. Nobody wants to show up and find their dream vacation home padlocked.

Sojourntraveller

Yet more self-justification. In all that, the only part that relates to illegal rentals wesley was, "I don't think it's my duty to question the owner about his taxes. His taxes are none of my business. If I want the apartment, and I've done due diligence on its reputation, then I might book it."

No one is suggesting you ask about his taxes wesley. Doing due diligence is not just about reviews of a property. Due diligence is about ensuring you are not entering into something that is illegal.

You ended with, "If Paris decides to issue registration verification for legal vacation rentals, then customers can make a safer and smarter choice. I'm all for that."

I have already provided a link that shows what someone has to do to offer a legal rental. Here it is again, read it.
http://paris.angloinfo.com/informati...unning-a-gite/

That tells you how you can know if it is a legal rental or not. No one who has gone through the process to rent legally posts on Airbnb et al and does not post on the Chambres d'Hotes or Gite sites. If you want a legal Gite in Paris they are listed on the site of those I have already posted.
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident=

So yes, Paris issues licenses and customers can go to sites that list those legal rentals. Now what's your excuse for renting illegally?

nukesafe

What you don't seem to grasp, Sojourn, id that many of us don't give a @##e if a rental is "illegal". If it is a pleasant place, is affordable, available, and actually there when I arrive, I will rent it.

The "illegal" sobriquet is a meaningless complication imposed by a foreign rule making body that simply does not concern me. I enter into a contract with a person with an apartment that he wants to rent. I refuse to worry about what restrictive impediments his particular governing boy has imposed on him and his property for some socialist pie in the sky "greater good" they happen to be touting this decade.

manouche

Frankly, I don't care if what anyone does is illegal or not - it's none of my business.
However, here's something to consider -
The majority of people who own apartments in Paris did not buy them as short-term investment property. They either inherited them from their parents, bought them as a home in which to raise their families or live out their retirement years. They did not intend to live in a hotel district, or a hotel environment.

If I were going to rent an apartment in Paris, I would not be concerned with who pays taxes, reports income, etc. I would, however, be very concerned about staying in a place where I was not welcome. Make no mistake about it - neighbors outrank the law, and can make your visit very unpleasant. They are not shy about it, either.

My building lists the following, in the rules and regulations set down in the condo agreement. These rules are common in most buildings.
No shoes worn indoors after 10PM
Household appliances (including hair dryers) are to be used only between 8AM and 8PM
No loud music or TV before 8 AM or after 10PM
No parties without prior notification
There's more, but I'll stop there.

Neighbors are easily irritated, and will "drop a dime" and call the police, or will not be shy about banging on your door to give you an earful - whether or not you speak or understand French.

Tourists don't have the right to stay in personal apartments, and they aren't welcome there, in most instances. I would rather stay somewhere where people were glad to see me, to give me a hand if needed, and who wouldn't care at all if I took a shower at midnight and danced a fandango in my 6-inch stilettos.

Nikki

Once again, I am not weighing in on the issue of legal vs. illegal apartments, but I have to respond to the assertion that neighbors of vacation rental apartments are all unwelcoming and hostile.

I have had several interactions with the neighbors of apartments in which I have stayed in Paris that were cordial and interesting conversations, including a lady who had lived in the building for sixty years. The lady who owned the apartment I was staying in was well known to the neighbors as she had lived there full time before moving some years ago to the south of France. No neighbor has ever made my stay unpleasant.

In every apartment in which I have stayed in Paris, I have been treated to the sound of people practicing musical instruments and walking around upstairs wearing shoes. I find these to be normal apartment sounds. I have not noted the time of these sounds, however.

Sojourntraveller

"What you don't seem to grasp, Sojourn, id that many of us don't give a @##e if a rental is "illegal"."

Oh, I grasp that all right nukesafe. There is a common seven letter word for the exit of the digestive tract that describes people who 'don't give a @##e' about other people.

Unfortunately, there are far too many such people in the world today.

Nikki, the plural of anecdote is not data. " are all unwelcoming and hostile."

No one said 'all' are anything. Just as not all who rent an apartment are uncaring of others who live there. However, IF you happen to rent next door to manouche, I think you know what to expect will happen.

I rarely wish anyone ill but I have to say that if nukesafe with that attitude, happens to rent next door to someone who decides to 'drop a dime' as manouche puts it, I just might find myself unable to not smile.

Manouche, you might want to start suggesting Paris follow San Francisco and offer cash rewards for neighbours who rat out Airbnb rentals.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-cash-rewards/

That would really ramp things up I'd say.

cynthia_booker

Nikki, I too have had very pleasant encounters with residents of the buildings where I have rented. One lady showed me where to take the recycling, another asked me for a bit of assistance and then we had a nice conversation.
And the rules Manouche cites are the same or very similar to those I have seen. Not all short term apartment tenants want to party all night and throw wine bottles off the balcony.

Sojourntraveller

The plural of anecdote is not data cynthia.

Not all short term apartment tenants DON'T want to party all night and throw wine bottles off the balcony. Now, does my sentence not equate to your sentence in terms of its evidential value?

What I think most people writing about this do not seem to be aware of is the exponential rise in the numbers of rentals during the last 2 years. Where that resident was pleasant to you 2 years ago or more, she may now be encountering 10 of you or 20 of you. Do you think she continues to be equally as happy when that happens? Are all 10 or 20 as pleasant and respectful as you were?

In 2013, Airbnb had over 4 million guests book through them. The question is how many were guests that the neighbours did not appreciate? You can assign any percentage you want to that question and whatever that percentage is, it will result in a signifigant number of unhappy neighbours.

I would suggest you can probably apply the Pareto Principle or as it is more commonly called, the 80/20 rule. In this case it would say that 80% of complaints by neighbours would result from 20% of the Airbnb hosts. Airbnb does sometimes refer to 'bad actors' but never says how many of them they know are in the mix of hosts. Nor do they ever refer to bad guests at all.

But regardless of how you choose to look at it, it cannot be denied that the more hosts and rentals there are, the more complaints neighbours are going to have. It's simple math. So the question is what is Airbnb or anyone else (government) doing to address the concerns of those neighbours. Not the concerns of hosts or renters, the neighbours who are the third party in every one of these transactions but seem to be invisible to the hosts, those renting and Airbnb.