elaine

HI
The custom in France is to have the coffee served after dessert if you have had a meal. That doesn't mean that you can't request otherwise, and most places are very used to having Americans request this. I've done it, and seen it done, in a wide range of restaurants including some of the best.

This is quite separate from just stopping into a cafe or patisserie to have a pastry with coffee.

ira

Hi Anna,

At a formal dinner in France you would have an hors d'ouvre, an entree, a fish or soup course, a main platter, a cheese plate, a fruit plate, a sweet dessert and then coffee.

See http://www.taillevent.com/english/restaurant/menu.html

The French don't eat like this every day.

RufusTFirefly

Yeah, Seamus, but that's Amsterdam, not Gay Paree!

peeky

So let me get this straight, there are certain rules that people in Europe follow and they get mad when you are not aware of them?

I have no idea when they drink coffee, how would I know that? Is this really something to ponder or should I just go and not worry about it?

The more I read on this forum the more confused I become. Some of you say to be yourself and others write about problems like this. Are there that many rules to memorize?

LoveItaly

peeky, don't worry about it. Just go and have fun. As long as you are polite and enjoying yourself everything will be fine.

flanneruk

The whole thing is academic.

I can understand - at a pinch - how Americans can drink that dishwater stuff you pass off as coffee with the pudding course.

But real coffee, as drunk by the French or the Italians, taken with most civilised puddings is a living excample of Mutually Assured Destruction.

It doesn't matter a row of Java beans what the paid help, or the people at the next table think or do: drinkable coffee ruins your ile flottante or your tiramisu. And limiting your pudding choices in Paris, Lyons or Bologna to Black Forest Gateau (or your coffee to milky decaf Maxwell House) is cultural vandalism.

There is always a reason Romans do as they do when they're in Rome. You've every right to do different, but you're probably being a darn fool.

kappa

> Is this really something to ponder or should I just go and not worry about it?

I'd say not to worry about such a trivial matter. Interesting to learn local customs but not worth to ponder. No body really gets mad if you don't know such local customs. Relax.

>I have no idea when they drink coffee.

I have a question. Do Americans drink coffee accompanying a meal (I mean, with stater or with main dish and not with dessert). I heard it could happen(or is this my ignorance ?).
I know American coffee is much weaker but, if so, it's something I have not seen people do in Europe. Of course, I don't say it never happens. And it's more like custom than etiquette (sometimes the border may be vague though).

peeky

Good LoveItaly, I'm trying to get some sort of schedule here.

You can see how confusing this is, now someone writes not only when to drink but what coffee to drink and with pudding and not with pudding. They eat that much pudding?

I know if I pay too much attention I will just *chuck the whole idea and go to Maui *not really.

LoveItaly

Peeky, reread Scarlett's post. Honest dear one, don't fret about every little thing. For example, Italians "argue" about customs, what is what, when is when, so to speak.

And I can assure you that no doubt many American's in Italy want to eat bread with their pasta. To an Italian that is a "no, no". There is an old saying "to eat bread with the pasta insults the pasta". But if a person wants bread with their pasts, no problem.

Sometimes too much information is an overkill. You will be fine on your trip, not to worry.

crefloors

I was lead to believe that in Paris you had your coffee after the meal and found that it was customary. That's the way I always did it but then..horror of horrors...they often put a small piece of chocolate on the saucer and ..oh god this is killing me to admit this....instead of nibbling on the chocolate, I melted it in my cafe noir!!!! It tasted really good and I was thinking how lovely of them to provide that!!! So, another reason I can't ever "do lunch" in that town again. Ya live, and ya learn. I also posted that my first time in London we sat at a table in a pub, waiting to be waited on. So, I'd never been to London, never been to a pub..so I was born knowing you have to order at the bar and they bring it to you? Just try and find out as much as you can about what is "accepted" practice and if you goof? Well I guess they'll just have to take you out and shoot you. Honestly, don't ruin your trip stressing so badly over this. Kappa..in some casual restaurants in the states it is very customary for the waitress to offer coffee right after you sit down and yes, some people drink it all through the meal. Just depends. You don't see it as much in a fine dinner house although if you request they will bring it to you and usually won't tar and feather you in the process.

peeky

Ok, point taken and I appreciate the little scolding.

Now the question in my mind is: In London, is it obligatory to keep your pinky up when you are drinking the coffee?

WillTravel

This will have to be a case where tastes differ. I have certainly enjoyed drinking strong Turkish coffee while eating a sweet confection, and many other combinations as well. I can't see how coffee would ruin a dessert, particularly if the dessert is chocolate-based or quite sweet.

LoveItaly

And what about all the tourist (at least in Italy) that go into a cafe, go up to the bar and order their coffee and than go sit at a table not realizing it cost more to drink their coffee at a table instead standing up at the bar. Than they are "just sure" that they have been ripped off because they are tourist!

Peeky, when I have friends from Italy come here to visit I usually get several e-mails and telephone calls with the most anxious but mundane questions, even from those that have visited the US before. It is precious.

A good traveler wants to fit in. The old "when in Rome" saying.

But please know that IMHO every traveler fusses a bit about not knowing the local customs of the area they are traveling too.

Just look at it as part of the adventure!

Scarlett

Halllooo dahlings,
peeky, the pinkie goes up only when drinking tea. And NO slurping!
creflors, that sounds so good to me right now..that dark chocolate and rich coffee taste..mmmm~
LoveItaly, yes, the Italian waiters horror when witnessing an American sprinkling cheese on clam sauce is much more dramatic than the befuddlement of a Parisian waiter being asked to serve coffee WITH dessert.
I realized last night when talking to the Yankee about this, that the reason this never really came to mind (with me) was that we rarely drink coffee late at night , that we usually have wine with the meal and dessert.
PUDDING? Do the British not start calling it Dessert after a certain age?
Just curious~

peeky

I was joking about the pinky.

What kind of questions do they ask?

If you order standing up you can't sit down? See, some book should write all of these things down. I have only read these things here.

peeky

No cheese? How about Oysters Rockefeller?

Scarlett

Peeky, I was joking about the pinky.

There are probably some obscure books of how people do things in other countries, but the way to learn is not through a book but by going there and Doing! Then you will be in the know and will be able to pass on your knowledge
And you will also see that none of this is very important once you are actually there and experiencing it ~

WillTravel

I cringe if I see someone putting ketchup on some innocent French fries, but I don't expect anyone to take account of my deeply-held beliefs. I wouldn't worry about offending anyone with food choices, but would focus on worrying about greetings, degrees of formality, personal space differences, and so on.

crefloors

Peeky...don't know if that was meant for me particularly but wasn't scolding darling...just hate to see you put yourself through all this and to be so worried about a possible little faux pas. Trust me...it's all good..we admire your concern with learning some of the customs and it's always good to know a few things and it shows care and consideration for the country you are visiting...but don't make yourself crazy..go and enjoy and if you make a flub I found a sincere "desole"...the sincere part is important...usually got me back in good graces. Just enjoy your trip. You know, those of us who have traveled to Europe, and even more those who can go often are so lucky..there are a lot of people who dream of it there whole lives and for what ever reason, it does not become a reality. I was so stoked my first trip..well my second trip too...but we landed in London, went to the hotel, checked in and then hit the pub...I was pinching myself, I was so excited, I just couldn't believe it!!!! My brother and I kept saying.."oh my gosh we are in LONDON!!! Can you beleive it?" So go, enjoy, you will have wonderful experiences, meet wonderful people and stop stressin' the small stuff.

LoveItaly

WillTravel, I sure agree with all you just said.

Scarlett dear, we all know that the pinkie only goes up if one is drinking tea, not coffee. But you need to elaborate. Is slurpping drinking coffe acceptable? Please advise ASAP.

About cheese on seafood pasta dishes, or yeah, that one really gets the Italians rolling their eyes!!

And the frenchfry/ketchup thing. My Italian friends come here and either have mustard or mayonaisse with their french fries. That always gets a strange look from the waitress.

Now Peeky, (and I am talking Italy only, do not know about the other countries) when you order coffee this is the situation. You can go to the counter, order your coffee and drink it standing there. You see many Italian workers doing this on their way to work. In and out of the cafe in 2 seconds!

If you wish (as most travellers do as well as Italians that want to have a nice relaxing rest) you go sit at the table, inside or outside, your choice.
The waiter will take your order and bring the coffee to you. You can relax as long as you wish.

To use the table makes the cost of the coffee more expensive but IMHO it is sure worth it.

It is when tourist do not know this, order the coffee at the bar, get the coffee at the bar and than go sit down at the table confusion reigns. Well not confusion but the tourist as I said before is sure they have been cheated. Italian waiters are used to this of course.

Do keep in mind Peeky, Europe has hosted visitors forever. I doubt if anything would surprise them. Honest.