On discussing politics in Europe
Mar 15th, 2006, 07:04 AM
#41
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I've always found this "politics, religion , sex" ban quite surreal coming from a country where strangers you meet at random places (restaurants, airports):
- Always take it for granted that you are a steady church goer and start asking you personal questions about your religious beliefs (a big no no in France for instance)
- Keep bringing up financial issues: how much did you pay for that? Oh you wouldn't believe how much I paid for that, etc. Very rude in a European context
- Give you the most detailed account of their skin disease, their mother in law's Alzheimers and their sister's boob jobs. Utterly gross and indiscrete if you ask me.
But, apart from that, politics are fun and lively and a great way to see if you have more in common with the person next door than sharing a seat on a plane or café. Guy18, if your partner wants to indulge into political discussion, he should be aware of the country's politics too (upcoming elections, burning issues, main political figures, etc. ), it helps.
- Always take it for granted that you are a steady church goer and start asking you personal questions about your religious beliefs (a big no no in France for instance)
- Keep bringing up financial issues: how much did you pay for that? Oh you wouldn't believe how much I paid for that, etc. Very rude in a European context
- Give you the most detailed account of their skin disease, their mother in law's Alzheimers and their sister's boob jobs. Utterly gross and indiscrete if you ask me.
But, apart from that, politics are fun and lively and a great way to see if you have more in common with the person next door than sharing a seat on a plane or café. Guy18, if your partner wants to indulge into political discussion, he should be aware of the country's politics too (upcoming elections, burning issues, main political figures, etc. ), it helps.
Mar 15th, 2006, 07:41 AM
#42
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Bonjour to you Florence.
you ask:
<<<Where in the Wide World of Sports did you get this preposterous notion ? There are laws against racist, hate-mongering public talk, or holocaust denial and apology of genocide, which is rather different than debating the issues at stake. >>>
Asked and answered seems to me. These are the very laws I am talking about, which criminalize certain kinds of speech, and the list is ever-growing.
We may argue about the need and efficacy of such laws, but the practical result is to make certain subjects taboo.
I guarantee you that some of my speech (entirely reasonable, by american standards) when I talk about certain subjects would be illegal in many euro states.
Do a google search of 'european hate speech laws' - you'll get almost 10 million hits.
And I'm afraid the US isn't so far behind on this subject, but still light years away from the euro model, thankfully.
you ask:
<<<Where in the Wide World of Sports did you get this preposterous notion ? There are laws against racist, hate-mongering public talk, or holocaust denial and apology of genocide, which is rather different than debating the issues at stake. >>>
Asked and answered seems to me. These are the very laws I am talking about, which criminalize certain kinds of speech, and the list is ever-growing.
We may argue about the need and efficacy of such laws, but the practical result is to make certain subjects taboo.
I guarantee you that some of my speech (entirely reasonable, by american standards) when I talk about certain subjects would be illegal in many euro states.
Do a google search of 'european hate speech laws' - you'll get almost 10 million hits.
And I'm afraid the US isn't so far behind on this subject, but still light years away from the euro model, thankfully.
Mar 15th, 2006, 08:09 AM
#43
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Here's the thing: we're losing the ability in the U.S. to discuss politics politely and without immediately falling back on partisan positions. Certainly the manner in which politics is "discussed" on television is a huge factor.
My experience is that in Europe one is able to discuss both U.S. and Euro politics in a more rational and less exercised way, which has led to far more interesting political discussions than I can often have here.
I also think that two points made above are equally true: Europeans tend to have a greater knowledge of and interest in U.S. politics than we do of theirs, AND their knowledge is fairly shallow, based on obvious media biases. Still, they know more about us than we do about them, generally speaking.
I also find that my drinking companions/political conversationalists are usually the ones to bring up U.S. politics with me and tend to bring the conversation back to U.S. politics when I try to turn to their situation, and I attribute this to the love/hate relationship and fascination many have with all things U.S. On the non-political front, I recall one conversation where my new friends wanted to know everything I could possbily tell them about Shaquille O'Neal.
My experience is that in Europe one is able to discuss both U.S. and Euro politics in a more rational and less exercised way, which has led to far more interesting political discussions than I can often have here.
I also think that two points made above are equally true: Europeans tend to have a greater knowledge of and interest in U.S. politics than we do of theirs, AND their knowledge is fairly shallow, based on obvious media biases. Still, they know more about us than we do about them, generally speaking.
I also find that my drinking companions/political conversationalists are usually the ones to bring up U.S. politics with me and tend to bring the conversation back to U.S. politics when I try to turn to their situation, and I attribute this to the love/hate relationship and fascination many have with all things U.S. On the non-political front, I recall one conversation where my new friends wanted to know everything I could possbily tell them about Shaquille O'Neal.
Mar 15th, 2006, 08:34 AM
#44
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I can't agree enough with laughingd2: in the US our public discourse about politics is woefully inadequate, probably because of talk radio and various "news" programs, all of which have reduced complex political and policy debate to simplistic moralism. That being said, I've had many interesting and polite discussions about politics with Europeans, and I am thankful that I have had the opportunity to learn what others were thinking (about Bush, about Blair, about health care, about global warming, etc.). Even when I was uncomfortable or disagreed strongly, I am still glad I had the opportunity to hear these viewpoints. However, I do agree with other posts that it is probably rude to advertise oneself as "one of those Americans who doesn't support Bush"; if it comes up in conversation, that's one thing, but to make that a point of pride seems arrogant. Maybe I'm cynical, but we're tourists, for god's sakes; as long as we are polite and spend lots of money, I don't think that our B&B host or bartender is going care one way or the other whether we supported the invasion of Iraq or not.
Finally, though I'm not sure of the efficacy of the various hate-speech laws that GallavantingReprobate has cited (hasn't stopped the re-appearance of neo-Nazis and anti-semitism in Europe, from what I can tell - please correct me if I am wrong), I would like to point out that the US has its own bizarre limitations on free speech - I refer to my home state's joy in pilloring teachers who apparently transgress unspoken community norms, usually when they compare our current administration to Hitler - though we are also saw the recent firing of a teacher for showing an opera video to elementary-school children. Who knew that Gounod's Faust promoted devil worship?
Finally, though I'm not sure of the efficacy of the various hate-speech laws that GallavantingReprobate has cited (hasn't stopped the re-appearance of neo-Nazis and anti-semitism in Europe, from what I can tell - please correct me if I am wrong), I would like to point out that the US has its own bizarre limitations on free speech - I refer to my home state's joy in pilloring teachers who apparently transgress unspoken community norms, usually when they compare our current administration to Hitler - though we are also saw the recent firing of a teacher for showing an opera video to elementary-school children. Who knew that Gounod's Faust promoted devil worship?
Mar 15th, 2006, 08:51 AM
#45
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" guarantee you that some of my speech (entirely reasonable, by american standards) when I talk about certain subjects would be illegal in many euro states."
Do you mean that you argue that holocaust did not happen? And give public speaches that provoke racial hatred? Because those are the only topics forbidden by law.
But gay rights and religion? Saudi Arabia is not in Europe.
Do you mean that you argue that holocaust did not happen? And give public speaches that provoke racial hatred? Because those are the only topics forbidden by law.
But gay rights and religion? Saudi Arabia is not in Europe.
Mar 15th, 2006, 09:57 AM
#47
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It all depends how you define racial hatred. And of course, if I'm a nutjob holocaust denier, why shouldn't I be allowed to firmly shove my foot in my mouth and expose myself as such (I'm not, of course, but just in principle). But on a practical level, unless you're an extremist, you're quite unlikely to run afoul of the European abridgements of free speech.
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:09 AM
#48
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Various euro states have various hate speech laws in place, so it is generalizing to accuse all of Europe of one thing or another. However, with the integration being brought about as a result of the EU process, there is starting to be laws passed by the EU parliament that will affect the whole Euro-zone.
Presently, what can get you in trouble in Germany is perfectly okay in another state and so on.
Anybody interested in European free speech/ hate speech issues should read about the case involving Oriana Fallaci. She is an Italian journalist and has spoke and written extensively about a particular religion. If she sets foot in Italy (she lives in NY) she will be arrested and taken to jail. She was tried for her writings (nothing to do with holocaust denial or racial issues) in Italy and convicted. She ran afoul of the very hate speech laws I am complaining about.
I have made many of the same points as Fallaci in public settings. This would be illegal in Italy.
Also, have a look at the legislative agenda of the (unelected) EU parliament and you will see plans for criminalizing a wide range of speech. These laws would have the effect of criminalizing any 'offensive' speech. And who gets to determine what constitutes the 'offense'? Obviously, anybody who gets offended.
Now, my guess is that if a person were to go to, say, Hyde Park, stand on the box and read passages from Fallaci, the bobbies would cart that person off. In fact I'd bet money on it.
p.s. - Fallaci is no right-wing nutter, she's a very celebrated journalist and very well known in Italy and worldwide.
Presently, what can get you in trouble in Germany is perfectly okay in another state and so on.
Anybody interested in European free speech/ hate speech issues should read about the case involving Oriana Fallaci. She is an Italian journalist and has spoke and written extensively about a particular religion. If she sets foot in Italy (she lives in NY) she will be arrested and taken to jail. She was tried for her writings (nothing to do with holocaust denial or racial issues) in Italy and convicted. She ran afoul of the very hate speech laws I am complaining about.
I have made many of the same points as Fallaci in public settings. This would be illegal in Italy.
Also, have a look at the legislative agenda of the (unelected) EU parliament and you will see plans for criminalizing a wide range of speech. These laws would have the effect of criminalizing any 'offensive' speech. And who gets to determine what constitutes the 'offense'? Obviously, anybody who gets offended.
Now, my guess is that if a person were to go to, say, Hyde Park, stand on the box and read passages from Fallaci, the bobbies would cart that person off. In fact I'd bet money on it.
p.s. - Fallaci is no right-wing nutter, she's a very celebrated journalist and very well known in Italy and worldwide.
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:23 AM
#50
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oh - and Tracy - the teacher you are referring to broke no laws, hence, the cops wont be coming after him, he wont be fined or jailed or have any charges filed against him. He'll not even be fired for incompetence (even though his actions merit it).
Public pressure and sanctions by elected schoolboards (which there are none of in this case) are very different things than LAWS passed by the state.
Public pressure and sanctions by elected schoolboards (which there are none of in this case) are very different things than LAWS passed by the state.
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:24 AM
#51
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Just my opinion:
Not talking about politics has historically led to a lot of ignorance and itolerance.
Checking your political position against other people's views on politics, especially those of people outside of your borders, is one of the most important things a voter can do.
Obviously requirements to any conversation, not just those about politics, include an open mind and respect of other people's ideas.
A lack of discourse places reliance for opinion/fact on mass media, a recipe which can quickly build regimes that govern a marginalized constituency.
Not talking about politics has historically led to a lot of ignorance and itolerance.
Checking your political position against other people's views on politics, especially those of people outside of your borders, is one of the most important things a voter can do.
Obviously requirements to any conversation, not just those about politics, include an open mind and respect of other people's ideas.
A lack of discourse places reliance for opinion/fact on mass media, a recipe which can quickly build regimes that govern a marginalized constituency.
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:25 AM
#52
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Holocaust denier, stone rape victims, nuke Mecca because Muslims hold it holy, hate everyone not of your race, push Israel into the sea, etc (note that hating the French doesn't count if you're in England, that's perfectly acceptable and even encouraged).
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:37 AM
#53
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I think I disagree with you, GallavantingReprobate. Though laws infringing against free speech are obviously worse in themselves than "public presssure and sanctions," the silencing effect is the same. Moreover, if teachers can't engage in political discussion for fear of offending someone (or the student's parents), students' education - in areas like the humanities and social sciences - will be dumbed down. I've already seen it. Finally, the teacher I referred to was placed on administrative leave and her contract will not be renewed - maybe not the same as being fired, but again, the effect is the same. And since when is showing an opera clip a sign of incompetence?
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:54 AM
#54
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grsing:
Encouraging people in England to hate the French IS illegal. Also, of course, unnecessary.
Pointing out, in the purest spirit of objectivity, the many shortcomings from which the French suffer OTOH is not illegal. It's not encouraged, because no encouragement is necessary.
Incidentally, the rest of you DO realise we do this just to entertain you all, don't you? The moment you've all gone home and there's no-one looking, we and Les Frogs pour each other a drink and get down to the really serious business of badmouthing the Yanks, the Boche, the Ozzies and - top of the hate list - the Swiss. 500 years of peace and they still can't get a Toblerone the shape chocolate ought to be.
Encouraging people in England to hate the French IS illegal. Also, of course, unnecessary.
Pointing out, in the purest spirit of objectivity, the many shortcomings from which the French suffer OTOH is not illegal. It's not encouraged, because no encouragement is necessary.
Incidentally, the rest of you DO realise we do this just to entertain you all, don't you? The moment you've all gone home and there's no-one looking, we and Les Frogs pour each other a drink and get down to the really serious business of badmouthing the Yanks, the Boche, the Ozzies and - top of the hate list - the Swiss. 500 years of peace and they still can't get a Toblerone the shape chocolate ought to be.
Mar 15th, 2006, 11:00 AM
#56
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Guy18, my DH loves to get the European view on US politics as well. Until last summer that is. We were at a pub in Cambridge, England and things got heated. And all of us (Americans and English) pretty much agreed on everything. The pub owner was very anti-Bush, anti-Iraq (blamed Bush for duping England and the war involvement), etc. I don't know where things went wrong, but even though we never criticized his view (if anything, we agreed), it turned very sour very quickly and we were asked to leave. Granted lots of beer was involved but it didn't end well. We now make it a policy never to discuss politics with anyone pretty much. We did however meet a couple afterwards that educated us on gay rights in England which was fascinating. So the evening was not a total blunder. And for the record I love the English and Cambridge and pose no ill feelings from this bizarre encounter. Just took away a good lesson. Which I think is do not get drunk and discuss politics? ha ha.
Mar 15th, 2006, 11:01 AM
#57
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Tracey14 -
I think we are talking about 2 different events. I am unfamiliar with the opera incident, I was talking about the Colorado geography teacher who had his insane rants recorded by a student and made public.
A geography class, not humanities, social studies, poli-sci or anything else. Geography. And I think there is a huge distinction to be made between public criticism/ pressure or being fired and being fined or jailed.
I know if my kid was being exposed to such blatant one-sided propgandizing, I'd complain to the principal and school board, as is my right.
But back to the original point - discussing politics in Europe. It is my opinion that honest debate of controversial subjects in Europe is impossible. Because of speech codes.
Tourists should go, smile, spend their money, be polite, see the sites, meet the people. But leave politics (and especially religion) out of it.
Personally, these days I care not a whit what the average european thinks of us and our administration, though it is flattering to know they obsess so much about us Yanks.
I make an exception with London cabbies - they seem to be the smartest people left there.
I think we are talking about 2 different events. I am unfamiliar with the opera incident, I was talking about the Colorado geography teacher who had his insane rants recorded by a student and made public.
A geography class, not humanities, social studies, poli-sci or anything else. Geography. And I think there is a huge distinction to be made between public criticism/ pressure or being fired and being fined or jailed.
I know if my kid was being exposed to such blatant one-sided propgandizing, I'd complain to the principal and school board, as is my right.
But back to the original point - discussing politics in Europe. It is my opinion that honest debate of controversial subjects in Europe is impossible. Because of speech codes.
Tourists should go, smile, spend their money, be polite, see the sites, meet the people. But leave politics (and especially religion) out of it.
Personally, these days I care not a whit what the average european thinks of us and our administration, though it is flattering to know they obsess so much about us Yanks.
I make an exception with London cabbies - they seem to be the smartest people left there.
Mar 15th, 2006, 11:08 AM
#60
Stephcar: I agree. If there's heavy drinking, avoid discussing politics and playing cards! I got into a disagreement with our neighbor while playing cards and drinking wine. A week later he came over to apologize. All's well that ends well.
