EWojo

Hi Everyone,

We are planning a trip to Spain & France for 3 weeks in March 2014. We're leaving March 1st, and coming back March 22nd. We enjoy eating good food, taking in the scenery, going to museums and castles, and perhaps do some wine tasting (not sure if this is an option in March). I'm particularly having a hard time with figuring out where to go in France in March as I heard the weather is pretty terrible. Would appreciate some feedback!

I'm unsure as to whether this itinerary is workable, would love to have some advice:

March 2nd: Arrive in London, take a regional flight to Madrid
March 2nd - 7th in Madrid, day trip to Segovia, and perhaps a day trip to Seville throughout this time
March 7th- regional flight to Barcelona
March 7th to March 11th- Barcelona,Check out Sagrada Familia, another day trip?
March 11th- Barcelona to Marseille regional flight, train from Marseille to Avignon
March 11th to March 14th- Avignon
March 14th, Avignon to Paris train
March 14th to March 17th- Paris (Louvre, Versailles)
March 17th- Paris to Dijon Flight
March 17th - March 21st Dijon?
March 21st- Fly back to London
March 22nd- Fly back to Calgary

nytraveler

Flying from Paris to Dijon is madness. It only takes about 1.5 hour by train - not much longer than just getting to the airport from central Paris.

I really believe you should rethink your transit - check out train options on bahn.de, which has schedules for all of europe. (I think Madrid to Barcelona is better by train as well - and Mardrid to Seville - but that's not really a day trip).

Robert2533

Skip London and fly directly into Madrid, returning from Paris.

You can take the train from Paris to Dijon (1-1/2 hours each way).

StCirq

You've got a lot of confusing information regarding what happens on March 11. Any reason you're flying into and out of London when you have zero plans to visit it?

ribeirasacra

Regional flight between London and Madrid are classified as an intentional flight.
Take the new high speed train service between BCN and Marseille.
http://renfe-sncf.voyages-sncf.com/

IMDonehere

You shouldnot make a day trip from Madrid to Sevilla, it is worth much more time, than a harried afternoon.

From Marid you can easily visit Toledo, Segovia, Avila, Salamaca, Cuenca.

Aramis

St Cirq said;

>>You've got a lot of confusing information regarding what happens on March 11. Any reason you're flying >>into and out of London when you have zero plans to visit it?

March 11th - they plan to fly from Barcelona to Marseille and then continue on to Avignon by train. It appears to be stated in a clear and understandable manner. Whether there might be a faster or cheaper or more efficient option for getting to Avignon is, however, worthy of a comment. Avignon can be reached from Barcelona in about 4:30 hours with a single change in Nimes. That probably compares favourably to flying to Marseille (1:05) and taking a bus from the airport to Aix and then a train to Avignon (0:50) when you factor in the extra time needed at the front and back end of the flight. Assuming those are 0:30 additional travel time to the airport over train station), 0:90 (check-in cushion) and 0:45 (luggage retrieval and bus boarding) minutes respectively, the total time for the flying option becomes 4:40 and involves more changes, more chance for delay and requires two separate ticketing requirements.

And, I will wager my next bottle of Rioja that they are flying into and out of London because;

- it is the cheapest direct flight to Europe they can get from Calgary, likely by hundreds of dollars, and
- booking separate regional flights to Madrid from London and then back to London from Dijon turns out to be far cheaper that trying to book connecting flight to Madrid from Calgary with an open jaw return from Dijon (a place they really want to visit), or anywhere else reasonably close to Dijon. But we can let the OP clarify that.

The advice on Dijon's accessibility from Paris by train rather than air is good - it is impossible to beat 1:30 on the rails by flying.

In the same vein of comparing rail to air, Barcelona is only 2:30 from Madrid by train and that is an efficiency that flying again can't match;

0:30 travel to airport
0:90 check in cushion
1:15 flight time
0:30 luggage retrieval
0:30 travel to city
4:15 = total trip time

Pricing of course, could swing it in favour of air if that is your prime consideration, but it is not likely when additional transport to the airport is included.

Other day trip options from Madrid are already noted. Seville is worth more time, but so are other places. If it is all you have got to spare then go for it.

From Barcelona, you could consider Girona, Figueres, and Sitges, among others. Google "Barcelona day trips" and wander arouns until something catches your fancy.

Calgary born?

Robert2533

Being cheaper versus flying a more direct route isn't all it's cracked up to be. Avoiding wasting a lot time making connections is a major factor in taking the most direct flight, especially when flying internationally. If you only do this once every few years, isn't it worth the extra Canadian dollars?

Aramis

Robert;

That would really depend on the amount of the Canadian dollars at issue and there won't be any time saving because of fewer connections in the OP's scenario.

There is no direct flight to Madrid from Calgary, or from Dijon to Calgary so it is inevitable that any connection will be in London, or possibly Paris, or Frankfurt each way. If we assume it costs the OP $900 to fly return to London and he has found a $100 London to Madrid flight himself and a $75 Dijon to London flight, that would total $1075. If an open jaw Calgary - Madrid and Dijon - Calgary flight prices out at $1625 would your recommendation be for him to pay the extra $550? The OPs London return and regional flight package will have one "stop" in either direction, just like a regularly booked open jaw would so there are no time savings based on fewer connections.

The only gain of a single connecting booking is the assurance that a missed connection does not mean one has to purchase new regional flight tickets. Some might pay hundreds extra for that assurance, some might not. If you are pretty sure that the regional tickets won't cost you more than $550 (or whatever the differential is in the particular situation) if you have to repurchase them after a missed originating flight then the risk becomes almost a no brainer. Note that one only has to consider repurchasing one regional ticket (missing the London - Madrid flight because the Calgary - London flight is late) since there is almost zero likelihood of missing the London - Calgary flight because the OP will take the regional flight to London the day before his flight on to Calgary. It is a calculation of cost versus the travelers tolerance for risk.

I have done the regional flight option twice, each time because of huge savings.

Robert2533

I just checked on a flight from Calgary to Madrid, returning from Paris. The least expensive flight for the dates is CA$1092 roundtrip, not bad:

Calgary (YYC) to Madrid (MAD) - Sat, Mar 1
Air France Calgary (YYC) to Amsterdam (AMS) - Sat, Mar 1
Air France 8375 Dep: 3:40PM Arr: 8:30AM 8h 50m Airbus A330 Economy (R)
OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES Layover in AMS Sun, Mar 2 1h 0m

Air France Amsterdam (AMS) to Paris (CDG) - Sun, Mar 2
Air France 1241 Dep: 9:30AM Arr: 10:45AM 1h 15m Airbus A321 Economy (L)
Layover in CDG 2h 5m

Air France Paris (CDG) to Madrid (MAD) - Sun, Mar 2
Air France 1600 Dep: 12:50PM Arr: 3:00PM 2h 10m Airbus A318 Economy (L)


Paris (CDG) to Calgary (YYC) - Sat, Mar 22
Air France Paris (CDG) to Amsterdam (AMS) - Sat, Mar 22
Air France 8230 Dep: 10:20AM Arr: 11:45AM 1h 25m Boeing 737 Economy (L)
OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES Layover in AMS 0h 50m

Air France Amsterdam (AMS) to Calgary (YYC) - Sat, Mar 22
Air France 8376 Dep: 12:35PM Arr: 2:50PM 9h 15m Airbus A330 Economy (V)
OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES

neckervd

I agree to everyting above. The OP wastes way too much time with all his flights.
A day trip to Sevilla is theoretically possible and would look like that:
Madrid Atocha dp 7.30 - Sevilla Santa Justa ar 9.50, dp 21.15 - Madrid Atocha ar 23.50. You would then have about 4 hrs for the visit of Sevilla before lunch and another 4 to 4 1/2 hrs after lunch. For dinner, you could eat some sandwiches in the train. But the main problem remains: a somewhat decent visit of Sevilla is not possible in 8 hrs only.
You would better sleep at Sevilla and then go directly by train to Barcelona, may be Sevilla Santa Justa dp 14.50 - Barcelona ar 20.22.
Only a few hrs at Avignon doesn't make any sense. If you don't want to visit Provence, you better stop over at Nimes (Roman amphitheatre, temples, etc) for a whole day:
Barcelona dp by train 18.26 - Nimes ar 21.53, sleep there, dp 17.52 - Paris ar 20.45

YankyGal

I say no to the "another day trip?" on the Barcelona leg. You will merely scratch the surface there with 4 full days.

And I'd nix Dijon on this trip. You just have too much going on, imo. From March 14-22nd, split your time (evenly or not) between Paris and London. If you have no interest in London, a full week in Paris is the way I'd choose to end that busy vacation. Cities are what I prefer when the weather can be iffy (but realistically, you never know what you will get.)

Happy planning!

EWojo

Hello all,

So yes, we are flying out of Calgary (Aramis, not Calgary born but love this city and been here for 4 years now)and wanted a direct flight to London which I've found via Air transat for $1610.00 for 2 people roundtrip. The flight to Madrid from London was $136.00 total for two people with a 2hr 25 min flight time. I have never flown regional airlines within Europe, so I am unsure of check in times but it sounds like there are a few instances where it is more beneficial to use trains (i.e. view with the same time as a flight).

It seems like most people are in consensus that my France itinerary is too hectic which is definitely not the type of trip we're looking for. I've heard Avignon is a very nice little town, and because it's March I figured we can try to stay out of winter's way as much as possible by spending some time there (unless someone has a better suggestion for a small medieval town that has enough to see for a few days). We did want to see Paris however only for a couple of nights. Also, instead of Dijon I meant Lyon as there are flights back to London from there. Is Lyon worth seeing, or is there some other place in France that would be better suited to spend a few days before returning to London for our flight back to Calgary?

Also, has anyone gone for a wine tour in France in March?

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Please keep in mind we haven't experienced travel by customizing an itinerary to such an extent by ourselves. So we are open to suggestion by many of you who are avid travelers in Europe!

Elizabeth

Southam

One small addition: The Marseille airport is connected to Avignon by a regional train, avoiding the need to go into Marseille itself or take the admittedly short shuttle bus to the TGV service at Aix. The regional train, although slow, stops at the central Avignon station rather than the TGV station on the edge of the city. Its stop is a five-minute bus ride from the front of the airport. Buying tickets used to require a chip-and-pin credit card. However, a post on another travel forum early this year indicated that a small ticket office has opened at the bus stop to accept cash etc. I haven't tested that info myself. Or you can look at the main SNCF internet site. Its schedule gives the itinerary as one-stop; that's counting the bus ride as a stop because the train is direct. Here is the schedule, from the useful airport website http://www.marseille-airport.com/acc...rain-or-by-bus

PalenQ

Take the train also between Madrid and Barcelona - you are pretty much seeing only tarmacs and airports and a few cities - it is 2 1/2 hours from Atocha station in Madrid to Barcelona -

Mimar

I'd end your time on the continent in Paris and take the Eurostar train under the channel to London. Only 2.5 hours city center to city center and relatively inexpensive if you book early. Avignon/Paris/flight to Lyon/flight to London doesn't make geographic sense. Do you want to see anything of Dijon or Lyon or London?

mcburja

In looking for a flight out of Toronto this April to the south of France, I found that it was less expensive to get a flight to Toulouse through Heathrow, than the cost of the same flight between Toronto and Heathrow. Go figure.

A few years ago, we flew a Canadian charter into London, and then took a regional (Ryanair)to Perpignan, as it was much the cheapest airfare to the south of France. However, be careful about the layover airports; often the regional carriers fly out of a different airport that the larger airlines. If you're taking a regional to a layover city on the way home, you can also end up spending the night in the layover city, as the Atlantic carriers typically leave in the morning. We ended up staying in a lovely 12th century inn near Stanstead on our layover between Perpignan and Toronto, but the cost of the inn and dinner far exceeded the savings on the flight - so that was a good lesson for us.

EWojo, we flew Air Transat into Barcelona (with a quick stop in Madrid on they way) a couple of years ago, spent five days in Barcelona, then picked up a car and drove to France. You could easily spend your time just between Barcelona and Avignon, and might want to look at an open jaw flight where you land in Spain but leave from France. And in March, you might want to consider staying in the south of France, and leaving Paris for a separate trip.

Our favoured mode for this kind of vacation is to rent a self-catering accomodation (meaning that the house or apartment has a kitchen, living room and bedroom(s) for a week, and then do day trips from that location. We find this much nicer than staying in hotels, and typically a lot less expensive. In March, the prices will be extremely reasonable. Take a look on the VRBO.com webite under Barcelona, Costa Brave, and the Languedoc, and you'll find tons of options. You can find places in the country, villages or cities. You could rent three different places for a week each, and be able to enjoy this special part of the world. Of course, this works more easily if you're willing to rent a car and drive.

Not everyone wants to rent a car, but if you're comfortable driving (and it's just not that different from home), you get a lot of flexibility that you lose when taking a train. And it may be less expensive as well.

Best of luck in your planning.

PalenQ

I'd end your time on the continent in Paris and take the Eurostar train under the channel to London. Only 2.5 hours city center to city center and relatively inexpensive if you book early.>

You gain an hour on the clock going to London so it is really only 1.5 hours! (Kind of)

From Avignon you could take direct TGVs to Lille-Europa, which is only about an hour from London via Eurostar trains. And with discounted tickets on each could be cheap - flying may be cheaper and a bit - a bit quicker - but on the train you see lovely France (Burgundy and Provence are neat) and also Kent, the so-called Garden of England - see something of Europe rather than just airports and huge cities.

neckervd

To Ewojo:
NImes is easier to reach than Avignon because the fast trains from Spain and those to Lyon and Paris stop there (at the station in the city center). Avignon has no direct trains to Spain (you have to change at Nimes or Montpellier) and those to Paris leave from the TGV station, somewhere in the outskirts and reachable by bus from the city center.
Both, Nimes and Avignon are good places for a few days stop in Provence. Avignon is the better hub for trips to Orange, Glanum/Les Antiques, Les Baux, Aix-en-Provence, Marseille, etc.

Lyon is a good place to visit (1-2 days) and for day trips to Vienne and Southern Burgundy. Journey time from both Nimes and Avignon to Lyon about 1 hr. Frequent trains to Paris (2 hrs journey)

Dijon is the charming capital of Burgundy (can be visited in 4 hrs or so) with many day trip possibilities to places like Beaune, Cluny, Tournus, Vezelay, Arc-et-Senans (google for them) and the vineyards of Burgundy. Journey time from both, Nimes and Avignon to Dijon 3 to 4 hrs. Frequent trains to Paris (1 1/2 hrs journey).

PalenQ

Though Nimes has some nice Roman relics and is a nice enough city it in no way is as romantic IME as Avignon or Arles - and there are very convenient rail links to Avignon from Spain, requiring one simple change of trains where everyone gets off one train and onto a waiting connecting trains. There are now, as of this month, a few direct Barcelona to Avignon TGV station trains and more to come - there is a shuttle bus connecting Avignon's TGV station, about two miles outside of town, to the town center.

If going onto Lyon then you can leave from the Avignon-Ville - old station in the town center and take regional trains to Lyon, a fascinating city - Ispent a few weeks there once and never was bored.