We will be traveling to Germany in July for 12 days- we would like to see as much as we can since this is our first time to Europe. We are flying into Frankfurt and would like to travel on the Rhine, visit Koln, go to Mannheim and from there go to Luzern, Switzerland and Salzburg, Austria, from there go to Munich and then back to Frankfurt. Is this a good itinerary or is it to much? Is it better to get point-point train tickets or a pass.Is there a web site to figure this out? We are interested in seeing botanical gardens.
thanks for your help!

For help in deciding about railpasses, try your itinerary at:
www.railsaver.com

I think its too tight. There is alot to see in each city-at least the two i've been to! Salzburg you can do in a day. Very beautiful little town. Munich is fabulous. You can walk all around the city...we we're supposed to do one week in munich and one week in frankfurt, and ended up spending both weeks in munich. While there go to Marienplatz, which is a nice pedestrian shopping area, Residenz, the museum of crime and punishment, the Deutche Museum (awesome, and i'm not a museum person), go to Rothenberg on the way from Munich to Frankfurt and Neuschwanstein is beautiful, and you can do it from Munich, BUT, they only give you a 1/2 hour tours and youre not allowed to take pictures inside the castle...but its still worth it. One word of advice...Don't do the bus tours. Youre limited in your time, Germans are clockwatchers and they didn't give us a second to spare, which stunk! You can do everything on your own by car...its better that way! You can also take the train from Munich to Salzburg for the day (or two) its about 1.5 hours by train...

We too are planning our summer vacation in Germany/Austria and also share your interest in horticulture. What gardens do you plan to visit?

I believe you should rent a car and I that you should pare your itinerary, especially since this is your first to Europe.

I know of no pass that will help you over this route unless one of the 3 country models will do it. But I have found it hard to amotize the cost of a pass on a fairly short trip.

I have several quesions about your plan, but none of them are askable without knowing exactly where you plan to go, when you plan to do it, and how long you plan to stay there.
(E.g. how long do you plan on allowing for Luzern and what are you going to do after you get there??)

I am concerned that you need to factor travel time into your travel plan in greater detail.

For example, Luzern to Salzburg is a 7 hour day just for travel. You could get to Salzburg as early as 2 PM, by taking a route through Munich, but you leave at 6:35. (Not a bad time.)
Otherwise a 15:30 arrival is your next best bet for a combination of length of trip and number of changes.
Then Munich to Frankfurt has a best travel time of 3.34. Which is fast relatively speaking.

I am not one to start telling people that they should do this or that.
But consider what you will have time to do after you arrive at each destination.

I would eliminate Mannheim from any travel itinerary. After living in Mannheim for 2 years, I can attest that it's nothing but a manufacturing city and very little to do or see. The top attraction is the water tower, so that says it all.

Heidelberg or Rothenburg odt would be a better option, as they are historic, beautiful, and geared towards tourists. There's plenty to keep you busy for a few days.

Renting a car is the most logical mode of transportation. You will find travel in Europe by auto very easy. Roads are clearly marked, generally well-lit, and no speed limits in certain areas. Drawbacks to driving are high gas prices and horrendous traffic jams(stau).

Have a nice trip. David

I agree that your schedule will be pretty tight. Why are you going to Mannheim??

I would suggest spending maybe 3 nights on the Rhine to visit Cologne, take a cruise on the River, tour a castle or two, and see a few of the wine towns (and maybe a "Rhine-in-Flames" evenning if you're there on the right day.) Add 2 days if you plan to visit Trier or the smaller towns along the Mosel River.

You'll need at least a couple of days in Luzern; I'd suggest at least a couple in the nearby Berner Oberland as well.

You CAN travel all the way over to Munich and Salzburg if you feel you must, but that's a lot of ground travel. I would instead spend some time in the interesting places that lie in between Frankfurt and the Berner Oberland. Look into Freiburg, Alsace (Colmar, etc.), Lake Constance (Swiss/German Border), the Black Forest towns (Titisee, etc.) the Neckar River towns (Bad Wimpfen, nearby Michelstadt, etc.)

The Swiss pass is usually a good deal compared with point-to-point tix there, and discounts on the lifts are available with said pass. A 3-country pass or a Swiss pass plus a German railpass might work if going all the way to Munich and Salzburg. If you decide not to go that far east, just get regular tickets. It's only 35-40 Euros each one way from Mainz to the Swiss border, for example, if travelling with a companion (roundtrip is cheaper) between the Rheinland (Mainz?) and the Swiss border; fares within Germany are cheap if travelling with a companion, if travelling roundtrip, and if purchased in advance. Weekday Daypasses are avvailable for 21 Euros/group of up to 5 for daytripping on regional trains around the Rheinland (good between Bonn in the North, Mannheim in the south, Trier on the west.)

I think your itinerary is doable with a few motifications. I, too, did a 12 day Germany, Austria, Switzerland trip that worked out really well. And, I was trying to get a lot in since it was my first time and didn't know when I'd get back. Anyway, how you build your itineray will depend on your flights. Is is roundtrip Frankfurt? If so, you could construct a circular route. I personally, flew into Brussels where I was meeting my friend. We spent the day there and did an overnight train to Interlaken, Switzerland (about 9 hour ride) for 2 nights. Then, we took the train to Lucerne and spent the day there. Then, we took an overnight train to Salzburg where we spent 2 nights. Then, a short train trip to Munich where we spent 2 nights. Then, we picked up a rental car at the train station and drove around Bavaria a little bit, toured Linderhoff Castle in Oberamergau, and went on to Garmisch for the where we stayed one night. The following afternoon, we drove on to Rothenburg where we stayed one night. The following afternoon, we returned the car and took the train to Bacharach on the Rhine where we stayed 2 nights. Then, got the train to Frankfurt where I caught my flight back home. So, we got a lot in 12 days! The only part that was too rushed was in Garmisch and Rothenburg where we only had a day. I think 2 days in an area is good where you're there long enough to get the flavor of the place and hit the highlights and not feel too rushed. And, you can see that my route was a circle and I maximized my time travelling overnight on the 2 longer stretches. As for your rail question, go to raileurope.com to check out the pass options vs. point-to-point. In our case, the 3-country rail n' drive pass worked out to be the best option. And yes, doing as much as we did in 12 days was pretty tight, but not bad, and we got a lot in. If you can work your itinerary to 2 days in each place, that would be good. And, my best advice is to you is PACK LIGHT, especially if you are on the go as much as we were! You'll be lugging your gear from place to place on and off the trains and most of the train stations do NOT have any escalators or elevators, so you're lifting your bags up and down the stairs. We each brought a rolling carry-on size bag, a backpack and fanny pack and that was it and I'm glad that was it! Good luck and have a great trip - you'll love that region - the cities and towns are all so beautiful!ikiseonf. ! you'll t would be better not to squeeze quite that much inssnsearu S aeby lifaleohgt dDid a 2-hour Rhine river cruiseuurise opent next daySpent a 1/2 day in Garmischraspentwpes 8eleRRtwipi