suze

For example you wouldn't just wander into Montreux during the Jazz Festival and expect to find a room.

dulciusexasperis

It amazes me how sure people are about things that no one can be sure of.

"or else you'll spend a half a day and tons more money just to be able to find another place to stay if that is even possible at times."

OK, PalenQ, prove it. Go ahead, cite your sources for that statement. The fact is you cannot, but you can 'assume' it though. That is what you are doing.

I have visited Switzerland in pretty much every month of the year I think. I have never pre-booked any more than a first night and I have NEVER failed to easily find a room I could afford. Nor have I ever spent half a day finding one.

So I can certainly speak from personal experience that contradicts your 'sweeping statement' that you will 1. spend half a day. 2. pay more than you want to. 3 not find anything at all. It has NEVER happened.

That is not to say that one of those things couldn't happen, it could, so what. I'd just go somewhere else. I'm not on a fixed itinerary after all. If Grindelwald is sold out, I'll go to Montreux first. If the Festival is on in Montreux, I'll just go to Sils Maria or Ascona. I don't have to do things in a certain order do I. Only people who pre-book think in such a linear fashion.


Would I go to Montreux during the Jazz Festival without a reservation suze? Absolutly and it wouldn't be the first time I arrived somewhere when something was going on.

Let's suppose I 'wander in' to Montreux when the Festival is on and it's 2 pm when I arrive. I will know within ONE hour if I am going to find a room or not. IF not, I'll just hop on the train, move on a few stops and find a room.

What's more I'll attend the festival from there since it's only going to be about a 15 minute train ride away anyway. YOUR assumption is that I beleive I MUST stay in Montreux. That assumption is incorrect.

If someone wants to pre-plan everything that's up to them. But don't try to suggest it is better than winging it. It simply isn't. I've heard every excuse anyone can think of for why they can't wing it (no rooms, cost more, spend a lot of time looking for a room, etc.), they're all nonsense when you know how to wing it.

The primary factor for me when travelling is the freedom to do what I want each day. What's more, winging it in fact often provides a large part of the experience I get out of travel.

If you're sitting in a bar in Antibes and someone says, 'hey, I'm looking for someone to share costs and lend a hand on my sailboat, I'm sailing for Corsica tomorrow. Anyone interested?'

The winger simply says, 'I'm up for that'.

The pre-booker says, 'oh wow, I would so love to do that but I've got a hotel reservation in Rome for Monday and a flight to Istanbul next Friday. I CAN'T join you.'

Pre-booking and itineraries put blinders on you to opportunities.

PalenQ

OK, PalenQ, prove it. Go ahead, cite your sources for that statement>

I base mine on 40 years and many moer trips to Europe - on personal experience - your experience is different than mine.

Keep on bloviating.

PalenQ

dulciusexasperis:

so what do you advise folks going by train to do - just wing it and pay full-fare tickets as they do - you know that now most people want to save tons of money by pre-booking discounted tickets that usually cannot be changed nor refunded - so do you say just wing it and buy your tickets as you go along - costing them tons more money.

You are out of touch with the average traveler and fail to see it. Sad.

dulciusexasperis

Around and around in circles we go.

Plan an itinerary for Switzerland for 2 weeks PalenQ. Buy a Swissrail Flexipass and follow your plan.

Arrive in Switzerland with no plan. Buy a Swissrail Flexipass and wing it.

Net cost difference? NIL.

You can assume a problem or you can look at how to make something work. You made an assumption. Why?

Hotels are priced based on occupancy and most these days use 'dynamic pricing' which means they can vary hourly based on occupancy numbers. It is just as likely that someone walking in to a hotel and renting a room will pay a lower price than someone who booked a month ago, as it is that they will pay a higher price. Logic and simple math tells you that is the case. In any event, the price will not differ by some dramatic amount. It will fluctuate within a relatively low percentage. Some you will win and some you will lose in EITHER case, booking ahead or arriving on the day.

You won't get a room. Look at some real statistical evidence. http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...145.pdf‎
If you scroll down to page 19 you will see that no region of Switzerland hit even 70% occupancy in the year covered (2010) either in winter or in summer.

While a given hotel in a given week might well be full, statistically it is not actually likely. But even if it is, there will be other hotels that are not full. Statistically, that is proven.

It is the average traveller who is unaware of reality PalenQ. They make the same old assumptions over and over.

PalenQ

So now you are narrowing down your places where you strategy could work to Switzerland?

How about folks say going from Germany to Switzerland and Switzerland to Italy and Italy to France - if they do not know a firm schedule they cannot get the much cheaper discounted train tickets or cheap flights on the spot but must book them far in advance.

Yes for big spenders like you who apparently care little about expenditures - a carte blanche approach could work but most are not on high falutin budgets like you.

Get down the to real traveler in the real world man!

PalenQ

It is just as likely that someone walking in to a hotel and renting a room will pay a lower price than someone who booked a month ago, as it is that they will pay a higher price.>

OK, PalenQ, prove it. Go ahead, cite your sources for that statement. The fact is you cannot, but you can 'assume' it though. That is what you are doing.>

OK now you go ahead and prove what you say! Sounds easy, right?

I question your premis here, so prove it!

HaHa - turning the tables!

dulciusexasperis

No PalenQ, I am not narrowing it down to Switzerland. That was the topic here and I simply gave an example based on that.

What you would like to do now is abandon that and try to come at it from another direction. But I'm getting bored with this.

So, either show it would cost more to wing it in Switzerland for 2 weeks or admit it would not. Then if you wish, you can try for another example where you think you can show pre-planning would result in a superior experience than winging it.

You aren't turning the tables, you are avoiding what is ON the table. That is not how debating works. In a debate, someone makes a statement and then someone provides a rebuttal. The audience weighs the evidence presented by both and decides who they side with.

You wrote that 'winging it costs more'(on a thread about Switzerland) and I provided a rebuttal with evidence to support my contention that it does not.

Either you let it lie at that or you try to provide stronger evidence than I have. Neither your personal experience nor mine presents much evidence either way. So far that is the ONLY evidence you have provided to support your contention.

I on the other hand have dealt with the train issue and introduced 'dynamic pricing' (which I may wrongfully have presumed you understood) along with statistical evidence of occupancy in hotels. I'd say the preponderance of the evidence lies on my side of the debate and that the only logical conclusion to be reached is that pre-booking is not cheaper than winging it for 2 weeks in Switzerland.

PalenQ

You wrote that 'winging it costs more'(on a thread about Switzerland) and I provided a rebuttal with evidence to support my contention that it does not.>

anecdotal evidence at best - I failed to see any but your claim that you can prance into a hotel and get below the posted room rates - well it you are a hard bargainer probably but those of us who are not will pay the going rate.

I see no hard evidence except your bloviating...

And I'm not buying it at least not IME of decades of European travel and travel writing.

dulciusexasperis

You seem to be fascinated with the word 'bloviate' PalenQ. Can't you at least expand your vocabulary to some synonyms?

What anecdotal evidence? I provided you with STATISTICAL evidence of hotel occupancy rates by the month in each major area of Switzerland. It shows you that the highest occupancy rate occurs in the Zurich region and in the summer it was at 69% in 2010.

So why would it seem unreasonable to expect you can walk-in and get a room. Of all hotel bookings, 40% worldwide are walk-ins. That's another statistic you'd rather not acknowledge I suppose. Or how about if I throw in that the average 'no-show' rate is 10%. That's right, on any given day, an average of 10% of reservations are 'no-shows'. Which hotel was it you thought was 100% full?

As for getting the best price, it really isn't that difficult to do. Do some research of your own PalenQ instead of relying on your own anecdotal experience.

I laugh at people who think booking at a discount online is going to get them the best deal. What you get is the smallest rooms, facing the wrong way, no free upgrades and no better a price than I will walking in the front door.

Read what insiders say. Here is one site: http://www.savvysugar.com/How-Get-Fr...rades-23765490 You might find some eye openers in there PalenQ.

Here is my personal single most important tip for someone walking into a hotel and asking for a room. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, ask 'what's the best price you can give me?'

The words 'best price' will immediately get you the hotels' listed 'best price' which in fact is the same as the 'rack rate' for the room. In other words, it is the 'best price' for them, not you. Asking what is the 'lowest' price will get you a totally different answer.

That one question has made more money for hotels probably than anything else.

dulciusexasperis

What the heck, let me give you two anecdotal evidence examples PalenQ.

Last summer my wife's sister visited us from Scotland. There is an area of Ontario, Canada called the 'Muskokas' that National Geographic consistently lists as the number 1 spot for a summer vacation in the world. I mention that to indicate it is a busy place to find a hotel room in.

The threee of us drove to Muskoka(in high season) and arrived at a Marriott Hotel. No reservation. We walked in and I approached the front desk. Here's how it went.

'Hi, I wonder if you would have 2 rooms for 3 people? My wife's sister is visiting us from Scotland and we drove up to let her see a bit of Muskoka. We hadn't planned to stay but your hotel looked so beautiful sitting on the lake that I thought we would give it a try. I know she would love staying a night here.'

Desk agent: 'Oh, well we are pretty full but let me see what I can do.'
Me: 'Thank you, I would appreciate anything you can do for me to help make her visit special.'
Desk agent: ' Umm, we don't have two rooms available at all. We have only one standard double room at $189 for the night I'm afraid. Give me a moment.'
Me: 'Of course.'
Desk Agent: 'Hmm, I have a suggestion. We do have a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom superior suite available tonight. It has a living room with fireplace, full kitchen and two balconies off the bedrooms and of course it is on the lake side of the building with a great view. It's on the top floor, would that bother you?'
Me: 'No, we have no objection to the top floor at all.'
Desk Agent: 'Well since it is a special occasion I have some flexibility. Our best price is normally $397 but I could offer it to you for $249 for the night.'
Me: 'That sounds great, you've truly made my day.'

The reality is we intended to stay the night, I had a price in mind for 2 rooms of around $300 based on local knowledge of what prices were like.

Instead of 2 standard rooms at $169 each or $338 total we ended up with a deluxe suite for $249. Well below my $300 budget.

Here is a second PalenQ.

My wife flew from Scotland to Orlando, Florida for a health service industry conference. She and 3 colleagues were duly booked into a hotel by the travel agency who booked all the travel for business. No doubt at a 'discounted' business rate. Four standard rooms.

I phoned the hotel from Scotland at the time my wife's fly was expected to land in Orlando. I asked if my wife had checked in yet. The response was no.

Here is how the conversation then went.

Me: Oh, thank you, she's only been gone 8 hours and I miss her already. I wonder if you could give her a message for me?
Desk Agent: 'Yes of course Mr X, that would be no problem at all'
Me: 'Thank you, umm, it's a little embarassing to have you write this I hope you don't mind, a bit soppy I'm afraid'.
Desk Agent: (giggles)'I don't mind if you don't.'
Me: 'OK, the message is, I miss you, I love you, you are a very special person. Is that ok?'
Desk Agent: 'Oh what a lovely message, I wish my husband thought to do something like that. I will watch for her arrival and give her the message personally.'
Me: 'Thank you so much, you've been very helpful and I appreciate it.'

An hour or so later the 4 ladies arrived to check in. Three got standard rooms. My wife got her message delivered and told 'what a lucky woman you are' and an upgrade to a 'junior suite'. The icing on the cake was when she got to her suite, there was a basket with fruit, cheese, etc. and a note saying, 'from hotel management to a special lady.'

YOu can only guess at how many points I made with my wife for that one PalenQ.

I see travel as an art or at least a skilled trade PalenQ and like any artist or skilled tradesman, learning your craft is necessary if you are going to be any good at it.

Peter_S_Aus

What a load of total crap!

suze

p l e a s e... make it stop.

Peter_S_Aus

Dulcie, many people on this forum are not as wealthy, leisured, knowledgeable well travelled as you might be.

How about cutting them a bit of slack.

PalenQ

Not everyone has the kahunas to play on folks sympathy and pander themselves with such nonsense about oh this is a special occasion - may work in Canuck Land but I guarantee you it will not work in Venice unless you perhaps speak Italian.

You are so so out of touch with most travelers - kind of autistic IMO - most do not want to be left in a possible lurch - they want there accommodations guaranteed in stone before they get to a city - they do not want to wing it and then beg on folks sympathies for a break- but mainly they want a secure sure accommodation before arriving.

So so autistic to say what's good for me is what everyone should do.

PalenQ

I see travel as an art or at least a skilled trade PalenQ and like any artist or skilled tradesman, learning your craft is necessary if you are going to be any good at it.>

I see travel as something that is fun - and to me trying to conjole some hotelier to lower their prices is no fun. When you go into a supermarket do you demand a lower price - anyway the way you practice your craft is not for the casual traveler out to have a good time not engage in some psychlogical drama to gain sympathy to have your room prices cut.

dulciusexasperis

Ah PalenQ, one man's food is another man's poison. I realize most people want security and so pre-book. They are free to do so, I've never said otherwise.

As for something not working in Italy, I gave you 2 simple examples. Where they took place, Canada and the USA are of no relevance. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Nowhere did I say I would use the same approch in Italy. Do you think I have only one arrow in my quiver? There are many different ways of going about getting the lowest price you can for a room. So don't concentrate all your effort on trying to discount what is only one way of doing so.

I too see travel as fun and playing the game with hotels as part of that fun. It's all in how you approach it n'est-ce pas? Hotel reception staff know the game (unless they just started the job last week)and most of them like to play the game as well. It gets pretty boring I'm sure after you have done your 365th check-in that week. Look at all the 'hotel insider' sites there are all telling you the same things. https://www.google.ca/#q=hotel+insider+tips

When you're bored, you play a game. For Hotel Reception, guess who that means they play with. There's no 'psychological drama' PalenQ. They know they're playing a game and so do I.

I do agree with you however on one thing, the average tourist doesn't know how to play the game. They don't even know the game exists.

Peter_S_Aus

To book or not to book, that is the question.

Some holidays need booking. One would be pretty dumb to visit, say, Whistler, planning on skiing for a week, but only booking the first night.

When travelling with children, it makes sense to have accommodation booked - it's a hassle changing hotels when there is a bigger party.

When travelling with the elderly, changing hotels after a single night is a pain in the neck.

If you KNOW that you plan on spending a week in a place, surely it makes sense to book for a week.

If a place is unique, and staying somewhere else cannot give you the same experience as staying there, then booking is a good idea.

If not being able to find a place for the second night is going to be a hassle (carting yourself plus stuff from Venice to Mestre or Vicenza, for example) then booking makes sense.

If you are involved in some sort of program of events (The Ring Cycle at Bayreuth, for example) then booking for the period is not such a bad idea.

If onwards travel is not possible, then book that second night.

On the other hand, if you don't care much where you spend the second night, then booking might not matter. Maybe you have a car and can easily move on. Maybe you are travelling solo. Maybe one town is pretty much like another, so it does not matter.

Horses for courses, I think.

And this horse has now surely been flogged to death.

suze

Poor Shan2014

joanw

Right now for my dates, there are 10 places to stay in Vevey.
The most affordable ones have a shared bath(3).The other 7 range in price from $164 to $406. So if you're on a budget, you will be priced out or forced to share a bath.