Robespierre

By the way: the Democrats agreed to award the president the ability to move into Iraq based upon bogus intelligence contrived and fed to them by the rubber-stamp CIA who couldn't tell Bush (out of fear of career consequences) he was wrong.

The WMD information was always there; it just never got disseminated in its undiluted form.

LucieV

Another one of those issues that is not black and white. In any case, this does not boil down to "proud of nationality" vs. "ashamed of nationality." In fact, there appear to be several distinct groups of people just in this thread.

> Those who choose not to advertise their nationality, but don't deny it if asked. "Actually, despite the ring in my nose, I'm not from Squidoo, I am a citizen of Transylvania."

> Those who wear their nationality on their sleeve. "Me Martian. Me not you."

> Those who disguise or deny their nationality, for a variety of reasons, including self-protection, avoidance of potential problems, etc. Some reasons may be less palatable to you than others, but by no means are all of these people cowards or infidels.

I don't see why any of those choices is a problem, unless you make it a problem.

Clifton

I agree with you Nikki. I don't see country bashing in expressing a political viewpoint. Frankly, I've never really heard of that logic used through history except as a rationale to stop discussion on current policy (in any country and throughout history). Policies and politicians come and go. Some none too soon. The country is still here. "United we stand" I think is a good ideal but I can't help noticing that whenever it's dragged out and waved around, the speaker means you should be uniting behind *his* ideal.

Personally, I don't mind a little political discourse, as long as the person is interesting and not armed. At home or away. I may agree and I may not. I just don't feel I owe it to our current chief civil servant or anyone who voted for him to not say what I think. It may well be the height of paranoia to believe that some personal, blah-blah-blah political conversation by two average people matters (especially when it's our own inane conversations with strangers). But I'd never claim to be something other than what I am... I was an American long before this latest bunch of political geniuses showed up and will be long after they're gone. They've got nothing to do with it. I don't feel the need to broadcast my nationality or deny it.

And I can't recall ever wondering if anyone could tell if I was American or not.

BowenLinda

<<what's a two-four blue?>>
a case of 24 bottles of Labatts Blue beer

Of course! Thanks, robjame. I vaguely remembering raising my elbow with Labatts Blue many, many years ago.

parisnow

<What is an American ethnic mutt>

Shall I model for you all?

Padraig

Budman wrote: "Padraig, I don't think my post answered the original question. I was just adding to the record."

You attacked a number of European countries that did not go along with the Iraq invasion. That sort of attitude embarrasses some of your compatriots. Sadly, there are still many who share your view. Which is better: to do the right thing for a bad reason, or to do the wrong thing for a bad reason?

To compound things, you have now suggested that Europeans do not mistreat you because they love your money. When I travel, I find that I am generally treated well by people, many of whom have no expectation of getting any of my money.

Budman

Padraig, you call my stating facts an attack? OK, but I did explain why they didn't go along with the UN.

The "love my money" thingy was said tongue in cheek, but the informal boycott of French goods/travel did have a big impact.

Toupary

"but the informal boycott of French goods/travel did have a big impact."

Yes, it made those who engaged in it look like fools. ;-)

eric502

I like being an American, when I go to Europe I don't hide the fact, how could I hide it, I'm from Oklahoma.

Also, soldiers have died for hundreds of years so that we have the right to make a fool out of ourselves. Some people do a better job of it than others though.

L84SKY

I met one of those Americans posing to be Canadians in person once. When she told me she was, "going as a Canadian", I asked how she was going to do it.
She said, "we're going to wear one of those, umm...." pointing to her collar where a lapel pin might have been.
I said, "a leaf?"
"Yeah, one of those leaves."

Okay, I was cruel not to supply "maple leaf", but why would I deprive her of important research?

lemidi

As an American born of a french mother (mostly raised in the US) we travelled regularly to France and there were some years that I went to school in France. I still travel to France now with my children. One thing that has not changed over the years is: The French have always, always discussed politics and initiated political discussions. This is not new and has nothing to do with Bush. I just considered that it was in their nature to be more intellectual than my American colleagues who were discussing music or clothing. As a teenager and young adult in France while dancing in clubs the French guys were asking about Carter and later Reagan. There was a genuiune interest in politics. Was it just American politics, I don't know. As a youngster I must say that I felt at a disadvantage in these discussions since the french youth were much more knowledgable in current events than I was it seemed.

Also, I have never felt uncomfortable being American in France and can not think of one time when a French person badmouthed me or my country that I am aware of. I have always been well received as an American. And even though I speak fluent french (with a bit of an American accent) when I open my mouth to speak French the conversation turns to English by the other party. Usually ends up me speaking French and the French person speaking English.

Anyway fast forward 20 years and I still do not feel uncomfortable travelling to france even wtih the current world affairs. The French still seem fascinated when they find out I am American, still love to talk politics and will give their opinion either way.

Finally as much as I love Paris I dont' think anyone will get the true feel of the genuine French sentiment towards Americans in Paris. Like New York, it is a huge busy, metroplis inundated by tourism. If one will feel uncomfortable in France for any reason this would probably be the place but more often than not I would assume an American's experince in Paris to be a positive one. Anywhere else in France I could not imagine much of a negative interaction with the French who go out of their way to welcome Americans. I and all my American friends that have been to France have too many wonderful stories to list while I can't think of one negative experience (brought on by hostility to me or the US).

Oh and I must add that I HATE hearing the bit about the French "liking our almighty dollar". I don't think the French kids I was meeting on the beach or the couple who tried to help us for hours of their time repair our broken down car etc...are thinking about francs, euros or dollars. How shallow to think that. Business people the world over think about the bottom line but this has nothing to do with the French reception toward Americans in general.

L84SKY

"The French have always, always discussed politics and initiated political discussions. This is not new and has nothing to do with Bush. I just considered that it was in their nature to be more intellectual than my American colleagues who were discussing music or clothing."

Interesting observation but as I'm sure you have realized , Americans consider discussing politics impolite. It has nothing to do with our intellectual capabilities but more to do with our amiable nature. Music and clothing are relatively safe with acquaintances.

robjame

lemidi - you have very eloquently hit on the essence of the situation and anyone who wants to really know the difference between North Americans and Europeans can find the answer in your post.
Europeans live amongst many other nations and as such are exposed to other countries politics out of necessity. Americans have never felt a need, partly because of geographic location, partly because of size, to become overly concerned with other countries history and/or politics. Canadians (when pressed) will admit to being aware of that for years.

Cimbrone

L84SKY--I really wish what you're saying is true. As a high school teacher, I can attest to the fact that ignorance, not politeness, is largely responsible for this discrepancy. VERY few of my 10th graders or 12th graders can tell me even the most basic difference between the democrat and republican party, let alone something like who was president during the Vietnam war or who the new speaker of the house is. So sad.

LucieV

<i>Americans consider discussing politics impolite.</i>

hmmmm...not an observation I've heard before.
I must live in an extremely impolite (American!) community. I must have grown up in an extremely impolite (American!) family. My husband &amp; I must have an extremely impolite (American!) marriage.

Nikki

Americans are a large and diverse lot. Many of us do consider discussing politics to be an important part of life. I was not raised to believe it was impolite, as our house was always a hotbed of debate. Apparently there are those who were raised differently, and this may account for the discrepancy in attitudes on threads such as these.

cigalechanta

The French I know and my other non-American friends love discussing politics. Even when we disagree, there is still respect no matter how heated our discussions become. Maybe if there were open political discussions here in this country we would be more tolerant.

lemidi

L84SKY, I was referring to young people discussing politics. I know for a fact that my American compatriots' hesitation to discuss politics had nothing to do with being polite. And, although I am an American I have always found the French to be more polite than Americans.

And I have recently run across more rudeness in my own country regarding politcs than anywhere in Europe and this from family and close friends.

ira

&gt;Americans consider discussing politics impolite.&lt;

And religion, as well.

In my experience, Americans think it is good form to ask about your job, your income; your house and its furnishings, your car and how much you paid for them.

Europeans don't.

LJ

I am not an American but have spent 23 summer vacations and done much business traveling in that fine and vast country. While we have answered many intriguing, conversation-opening questions on politics, religion, home furnishings, cars, food choices-I have NEVER been asked my income. Ira, are you teasing us?