elina

>>>But some European countries don't count a person as an infant until they're 12 months old, whereas in the US, if a 6-1/2 month fetus takes a breath, it's an infant.<<<

Now that is a statement I have heard also before. Where does that (dis)information come from? Name even ONE European country that does not count a newborn as an infant. Because I don´t know a single one.

thursdaysd

Saying that everyone who shows up at an ER in the US must be treated doesn't say anything about the quality of the care. A good friend of mine's sister showed up at the ER with an intestinal infection. They did not do the correct tests to properly diagnose her until it was too late for the treatment to work. She died.

The uninsured problem is not so much people who can qualify for Medicare, but people who are slightly better off and can't qualify for Medicare or afford insurance. And then there are those WITH insurance who discover it doesn't cover what they need. Another friend lost a leg in a car accident, and his insurance included a ludicrously low limit on coverage for prosthetics. Since the insurance was through his employer, even if he had found out that the limit existed beforehand, what was he supposed to do about it?

bardo1

tomboy: <i>"Did the study compare survival rates? No, what's that got to do with quality of care?"</i>

It looks at something even more meaningful: Life Expectancy

So, for having the most expensive medical care in the world, the US ranks <b>Number 34</b>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

ira

Hi Dan,

>Where in GA? My family is from rural GA (Elijay to the north and Griffin in mid-Ga.

Madison. About 40 min due South of UGA.

>One of the most frustrating things for me over the last eight years ........<
I think that you have allowed the very bad experience of having to put up with w & co to color your <i>Weltanschauung</i>.

Take a longer view. No one, repeat no one, will ever be that bad again.

>At the end of the day I think the debate is a matter of priorities..............<
Of course. So, do you think that it is more important that a senior manager at a Financial Services Industry corporation that "is too big to fail" get a bonus of $1 M and keep $730k instead of $710k or that 8 children receive affordable basic health care?

>You cannot require someone to pay in advance at the ER. <
They reported the same thing in yesterday's weekly. The hospital has dropped the idea.
.................................................. .................
Hi TB,
>For those who are unfamiliar with how the American system REALLY works;
...... A current client is a Hispanic couple,........<

Your anecdotal evidence is readily refuted by other anecdotal evidence.

I know of 3 working-poor families, down here in Madison, with income around that number who have been unable to qualify for medicaid for 2 years. Each time they jump through a hoop another one appears.

>So, if we're paid more in the US, wouldn't it be logical that the cost would be more?<
NO. The comparisons are % of GDP. Also, you have to account for buying power of the USD vs the CD

>So many people despair the 'throngs' of uninsured in the US. 25% of them ......<
You have citations for your neatly arranged quartiles?

>5. Another complaint ................<
Rather than engage in conspiracy theory, be a bit more dogged in your internet searching:
http://archive.ahrq.gov/news/ulp/costs/ulpcosts1.htm
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba437/
.................................................. .....
Hey jean,
>if the are unable pay there are various government or charitable funds. .......<
Come on down to where the local hospital wanted to require payment in advance because of the number of people using the ER who can't pay.

Read about Grady Hospital in Atlanta.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/us/08grady.html

Our local GPs require an insurance card or payment in advance. If you have neither, you go to the ER.

>We have a large hospital near us that is in bankruptsy,the majority of thier patients are ilegals, & lower wage earners. <

Aha. If it wasn't for all them danged unlegals takin jobs from real amuricans there wouldn't be no problem. You have a name for that hospital?

>When the government pays it takes 3 months or more. this is why most MD,s are unanle to take on medicare patients......<

You have it backwards. Medicare/medicaid pay within 60 days. Private insurers take anywhere from 90 days to years. You are also mixing up Medicare and Medicaid.

Stop parroting the neocon line and come out of your ivory tower.
.................................................. ..
Hi walkin,
>doctors coming TO the patient (unless absolutely necessary) is extremely inefficient and a poor use of a scarce resource. <

You are getting anecdotes from people who were foreign visitors.
.................................................
Elina requests
>Name even ONE European country that does not count a newborn as an infant.<
While you are at it, tell us where it says that a 6 1/2 month fetus is counted as a person in the US.

thursdaysd

Another statistic on the US system, from AARP.

"Medical debt caused a staggering 62 percent of personal bankruptcy filings in 2007 - and three-quarters of these filers actually had health coverage."

tomboy

"There are none so deaf as those who will not hear."

Elina: since you already know it all, there's nothing to be gained from enlightenment. It's pointless to prove something to someone who demands proof of every statement that contradicts her belief system, yet supplies none of her own. Were it to be done, she would then define it as anecdotal, or incidental, or.....

Ira: those two links aren't as detailed as I'm looking for. But it's good to know of their existence.

Another interesting link highlights a part of the disparity between US & Euro infant mortality, demographics
http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templa...t.aspx?ID=3021
look at the data for 13 years or more of education
People are not all created alike, witness longevity in Armenia, etc.

Agendas aside, if a fetus is born at 6 months and takes a breath, it's defined as a live birth in the US.

tomboy

"In 2009, the US CDC issued a report which stated that the American rates of infant mortality were affected by the United States' high rates of premature babies compared to European countries and which outlines the differences in reporting requirements between the United States and Europe, noting that France, the Czech Republic, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Poland do not report all live births of babies under 500 g and/or 22 weeks of gestation.[6][9][10] However, the report also concludes that the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation for the United States’ relatively low international ranking.[10]

"Another well-documented example also illustrates this problem. Historically, until the 1990s Russia and the Soviet Union did not count as a live birth or as an infant death extremely premature infants (less than 1,000 g, less than 28 weeks gestational age, or less than 35 cm in length) that were born alive (breathed, had a heartbeat, or exhibited voluntary muscle movement) but failed to survive for at least seven days."

annhig

Agendas aside, if a fetus is born at 6 months and takes a breath, it's defined as a live birth in the US.>>

care to tell us where that is NOT the case?

Askar

tomboy
<"In 2009, the US CDC issued a report which stated that the American rates of infant mortality .../...
<b>However, the report also concludes that the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation for the United States’ relatively low international ranking</b>.">

elina

>>>Agendas aside, if a fetus is born at 6 months and takes a breath, it's defined as a live birth in the US.<<<

And certainly is also here. That is why I was curious which European countries define differently. Because this was not the first time I have heard someone claim that.

PatrickLondon

The WHO definition for infant mortality doesn't allow for much exclusion:

"a product of conception, irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which, after such separation, breathes or shows any other evidence of life"

though it does also allow for various forms of estimation based on subjective reporting of what mothers counted as births.

http://www.who.int/whosis/indicators/en/

ira

Hi tb,

>if a fetus is born at 6 months and takes a breath, it's defined as a live birth in the US.<

Of course, because it is no longer a fetus, it is a preemie.

tomboy

It's unfortunate so many people wish to prove how horrible the US system is, for it seems to preclude true intellectual discovery. No one said it's without fault (well, some did, but anything has SOMETHING imperfect). But it's not this forum only has jingoists from the US.

For example, if one looks at http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templa...t.aspx?ID=3021
there's a table about 1/4 down of Infant deaths and mortality rates for the top 3 leading cause of death for African Americans, 2005. (Rates per 100,000 live births)
The top cause of infant death is Low-Birthweight, often a result of early teen pregnancies. The deathrate from low birthweight among African-Americans is nearly 4 times that of Euro-whites. It'd be interesting to know how this holds in other countries (which probably don't have Afr.-Amer populations of 15%, without alerting the PC police. It's difficult if not impossible to get facts about other countries, without the ability to read their governments' websites.
Similarly, it'd be interesting to know why Iceland is so low, or why France has infant mortality 45% higher. Or why Slovakia's infant mortality is almost double Czech Republic's.

annhig

tomboy,

i have no desire to "prove" how horrible or otherwise the US health-care system is. However, it is frequently lamented by US citizens that a large no. of you are not entitled to any sort of health-care without paying for it, which many millions are unable to do. the contrast with most countries of Europe, where there are comprehensive health systems, is inescapable. put bluntly, if my 22 year old daughter gets ill, the only thing I have to think of is her getting the best treatment, not how I'm going to pay for it.

the infant mortality rate is a bit of a red herring - it is only one measure of how the US system compares. the main relevant statistic is that some 50 million US citizens are neither insured nor able to afford health care.

Apres_Londee

>>>The deathrate from low birthweight among African-Americans is nearly 4 times that of Euro-whites<<<

And you think that's due to what? Skin colour?

As opposed to poverty and social conditions and poor access to services like uh...good, life-long medical care?

Freaky logic- just like the people who refuse to accept evolution or climate change.

annhig

hi apres,

you may be intereested in a recent study that has found that the life expectancy of the poorest areas of Sheffield is about 18 years less than that in the most affluent and the gap is getting wider.

and that is with universal healthcare.

without it, who knows?

Michel_Paris

If some people spent more of their energy trying to fix the system, instead of desperately trying to find stats to prove (to themselves, not the rest of the world) that their system is better, perhaps some serious progress can be made.

Look for these....how many health care systems in the Western world do no cover all of their citizens?

How many health care systems have as a by-product of theur system personal bankruptcies?

How many systems impinge so greatly on the citizens lives that their careers, retirement decisions, and often whether treament can be sought are important critiria?

How many systems do people worry about getting treatment because it could impact on their future access to the system?

I had a major medical condition a few years back. I chose the nearest hospital to my home. I had no family doctor. It also happened to be one of the country's leading hospitals in the the area I was treated for. I was admitted, diagnosed, operated on and released within 4 days. A few weeks later I can bakc for daily treaments. ALL of the above required only one thing...the swiping of my medical ID card, which showed I was a citizen of my province. I paid a TOTAL of $65 for the complete treatment, for a specialized drug. There was NO paperwork to fill in. I can go back to that hospital or any other without any consideration of my previous condition. Another swipe of my card and in I go. And in case you have never visited my country, I think I live a pretty good life in a pretty good country. In other words, I lead a good life, and yet...my taxes pay for the medical system. Wrap your mind around that. Good life...good health care...a $ in my pocket when I need it.

tomboy

Apres_London: You obviously did not look at the link I reported. If you had, you would have seen that black mothers with more than 13 years education had more than twice the infant mortality of whites. Now, assuming that people with at least some college are not apt to be penniless, there must be something notable here. If it had been mothers with less than 8 years of education, I'd be inclined to lay off the whole difference to socio-economic differences. But no, you automatically assume I'm some kind of racist for even pointing out the data differential.
I'm waiting for your explanation of the low mortality in Iceland.

artsnletters

You can be more than "penniless" and still be poor.
If you are a minority, you are more likely to have grown up in poverty.
If you are a minority, you are more likly to have grown up with substandard health care.
If you live in a primarily minority neighborhood, you are more likely to have been exposed to environmental hazards.

In Iceland, guess what?

State health care system for all - there is NO private health care
More doctors per head of population than any other country
A very low poverty rate

I'd guess those factors have at least a little to do with it.

Apres_Londee

Did YOU read the link tomboy? Here's what it says:

>>>African American mothers were 2.5 times more likely than non-Hispanic white mothers to begin prenatal care in the 3rd trimester, or not receive prenatal care at all<<<

13 years of education means nothing, that number is meaningless without socio-economic context.

>>>Now, assuming that people with at least some college are not apt to be penniless, there must be something notable here<<<

So what's the something notable then? How do YOU explain Iceland's low infant mortality rate? I agree with what artsnletters said.