kleeblatt

Your trip report sounds honest and from the heart. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

joram

cimbrone-
Believe me, I have replayed my entire trip in my head numerous times. In fact, my earlier posts discuss how my wife and I had discussed our plans after arriving at the train station. Events didn't unfold as planned. I got change because I felt that after assuring myself that I was getting into a taxi, I would have some change to tip with. I did verify that it was a taxi stand and I was getting into one. But, I also recognized that I didn't understand the language and still had apprehension. I had an abundance of caution from the beginning which gradually lessoned as we became comfortable in Paris. thanks for your comments and I realize they were well intended.

111op

I've been reading this report. I'm sorry that something bad happened to you, joram.

I feel that there're a lot of posters here who feel that Paris can do no wrong. Somehow only good things can happen in Paris. While I also love Paris and have been there many times, I should say that petty crime can happen there -- just as it can happen anywhere else.

I've travelled pretty extensively, and I live in New York City, and I've had both the good and the bad in Paris. My mom was pickpocketed on a Paris Metro. I'd have to admit that we were out of it that day, and this could have been prevented. But on my last very brief visit to Paris, I was taunted and harassed at the Les Halles RER stop. I had to take a train around 5 am for a flight at 7 am, and a few thugs actually tried to physically snatch my carry on away from me.

There were already a few people there, but the staff didn't start showing up until a couple of minutes later. I couldn't help but feel a little nervous.

Of course in retrospect I probably should have taken a taxi to be on the safe side.

But Paris was also the city where a server from a restaurant caught up with me to return my passport (with lots of cash in it) and where I managed to get the cash back a few hours later after dropping I had dropped it in a changing room at Bon Marche.

Anyway, I can be a pretty absent minded person, but this doesn't mean that I'm not careful when I travel. I think that we need to realize that even if we're careful, there're situations that can just be out of one's control. Sometimes these things happen so quickly that we don't have the time to react before it's all over.

JEFF_

500 euro from a ATM at a train station with a questionable character lurking and now a wallet in the hip pocket, it all sounds like an incident waiting to happen.

Cimbrone

joram--glad you know I meant well. I am sorry your trip had a bad ending, and I certainly wasn't implying you deserved it. Perhaps your posts will make us all be more cautious on our future travels.

Nina66

joram, there is no need for you to feel defensive or to explain your actions - to anyone.

You obviously did a lot of research and planning for this trip. Your care is so very evident.

Let he/she who is ALWAYS (and I mean always) aware of their surroundings - cast the first croissant.

scubapuppies

Joram, you had a very busy itinerary, plus you had to have suffered from jet lag, despite being in London first. And it's a lot of effort trying to communicate in a foreign language, get your bearings in a strange city, keep alert and take in all those marvelous sights... be proud that at least you're an adventurer! Most people don't leave their own hometowns for fear of what you experienced. Cheers!

nessundorma

bigtyke,

How was this person killed?

joram

Now that I've posted our very nice trip up to this point, saturday night turned everything upside down for us. Before I describe what happened, let me provide some personal information.
I turned 58 on Tuesday during this trip. I am as active as possible but limited by the back surgery I mentioned earlier. However, I can do almost anything except jog. I grew up in a poor household but didn't realize it at the time. My father was an 8th grade dropout and my mother was an 11th grade dropout. They had 4 children, I was the 2nd. My father joined the army at 17 and was on the boxing team. From the time I was old enough to walk I knew nothing else but boxing. I ran every day and fought often. My dad trained aspiring professionals and as a teenager, I regularly sparred with them. One of his fighters was ranked 4th in the world at one time. He groomed me carefully but came to realize that I did not have the 'killer' instinct when I had someone in trouble and suggested that I drop it when I turned 17 although I was regularly beating 23-26 year olds. I turned to baseball and graduated with several scholarship offers. I had my heart set on playing in college but my dad wouldn't hear of it. He was determined that I get a college degree and that I shouldn't let anything distract me. Eventually, I would become a pharmacist, my brother and sisters also earned advanced degrees. I can't argue with his results.
The point to this is that I do not consider myself someone who can't defend himself. So, hopefully, this provides some background.
As my wife and I entered the Galleries Elysee entry, there was a shop on the left clearly displaying items in the window. It was a wide entry. We walked about 10 paces in from the Champs Elysee when I noticed a man about my size and round 30-35 of age leaving the shop. My wife was on my right shoulder, the man was on my left. He wore business attire (either a suit or a sports coat, dress slacks, tie, etc.). He proceeded to walk in front of us about 3 paces. Then, he abruptly stopped directly in front of me turning towards the shop. I tried to avoid bumping him but brushed his right shoulder. As he turned to face me, I said 'excuse moi' and took another step forward. The rest happened so fast, it is a blur but each movement is forever embedded in my memory. In slow motion, this is what happened: I felt a presence on my left and turned to see. I saw this same man and he immediately pushed his right arm under my left armpit so that his wrist was near the back of my neck. At the same time, his right leg was wedged between the front of my left knee. This placed my left arm behind his. He tried to force me forward in an effort to trip me over his right leg. Instinctively, I tightened my left arm around his right arm and semi-turned to the left. This placed him in a position that I could have either pushed him on his back or punched him. I didn't do either. He said something that I didn't understand. I remember looking at his left hand to see if he had a weapon and fearing that if he had a knife or something else, I was vulnerable too. In that instant, he reached with his left hand and placed it on my left shoulder. He tried to force me forward but I didn't move but a few inches. He struck with his right hand on the back of my neck to his best ability since I still had a hold of it. I pushed away from him about a foot or two and he ran away. My wife had continued to walk not realizing what was transpiring. She turned in time to simply see that he was grabbing me. As I walked back to her, she asked if I still had my wallet. I reached back and it was gone. I ran in each direction to see if I could locate him but he was long gone. I'll report the rest of the night and the following day ending with our departure on Tuesday at 1pm.

P_M

Well this certainly qualifies as an assualt and not just a bump-and-run pickpocketing. That must have been scary, especially as you didn't know if he had a weapon or not. Were you injured at all? I certainly hope not, and that's the most important thing. It just goes to show that even in a city as beautiful as Paris, anything can happen. Thanks for the update, I hope you are able to straighten out your business w/credit cards, etc.

111op

That's pretty scary. But it's good to know that you weren't seriously hurt (or at least it doesn't seem like you were seriously hurt).

On a much smaller scale, I was also harassed in Naples in a rather similar fashion. But I wasn't hurt, and while I thought my wallet was taken, it wasn't. It was actually a rather strange experience. But I was frightened. This guy acted as if he was about to push me into his car.

Anyway, that's why they are the professionals and we're not. As you say, these things usually happen so quickly and so surprisingly that you can't react to them properly.

P_M

111, I think your last sentence sums it up pretty well. The OP said he had the opportunity to shove or punch the man but he didn't. It's easy to say, "Well, if I had been there, I would have punched him." But that's a harder thing to do when you are a victim in a state of shock. The bad guy was psyched up and ready for a physical confrontation, but the victim is caught totally off-guard and will later think of a dozen things they could have done differently.

Brender

OMG!!! That is so scary. We were there last Monday and Friday. I remember the name of that shopping center. Did you call the police after the incident? I'm curious as to what you did next. I'm so sorry that happened to you and I hope you will recover both financially and mentally.

WillTravel

Thanks for posting, joram. I think it's clear you and your wife did not do anything wrong by walking down a popular street. You just had terrible luck. It doesn't even sound like you were particularly distracted.

I will readily admit to being an absent-minded, distracted person who's sometimes off in my own world. I've not had anything bad happen, and I do try to pay attention, but to a large extent, it is luck.

cafegoddess

joram, I am so sorry this happened to you. I hope you have recovered somewhat. Please take care.

joram

Thanks to everyone for your concern. I was not hurt. However, I was terribly embarassed and felt like I should have done something. The look on my wife's face made me feel worse as we realized we had lost all of our cash, credit cards, drivers license, and other forms of id. I can't describe the feeling that I had let her down and there was nothing I could do to fix it. The fact that I had decided not to use the money belt under my clothes made it worse. I thought we were simply going the 25 ft across the hotel and back. This kept coming to mind--but it was no excuse. We walked the short distance to the hotel and asked the concierge to call the police. He said that they wouldn't come and I had to go to the station which was located about 5 blocks away on the Champs Elysee. He also provided me the global number to Mastercard. Fortunately, my wife our passports were not in my wallet. We walked to the police station as quickly as possible. It was a little hard to find. We reported the incident but the lone officer on duty could not speak english. We waited a few minutes and another officer came in to tell us that they did not enough staff to process the report so we could wait a few hours or come back tomorrow. We opted to wait. A few minutes later, an officer took us to a room and we muddled thru the incident. He gave us a copy for our records and, I think, he said there was nothing that could be done---that he was sorry but it happens in our country as well. I guess he was right but, at that moment, we would have liked to provide a description or look at pictures because it was obvious to us that the thief was a career professional. We returned to the hotel and up to our room. I called Mastercard. I carried 3 cards-- 2 charge and 1 debit. They could only find 1 charge and 2 debit cards. This is where it gets confusing. My wife and I have 2 checking accounts. One is used to pay our monthly bills from and the other for personal use. The card stolen was for the account we pay our bills from. I asked that they cancel their use but to make sure not to cancel the other debit card since that was still in my wife's possession. The agent assured me she had the correct cards identified. I wrote everything down. I called again to find out about the 3rd card. I was informed that 1 card was canceled but the debit card system was down at my bank and that card would be canceled asap. In the meantime, they said $280 had been charged on the credit card. I was able to find the 3rd card phone number myself and called them directly. They canceled its use immediately but $85 had been charged on it already. Several hours later I called again to check on the debit card. They said the system was still down. I couldn't sleep all night. We didn't want to ruin our trip so we walked to an ATM machine and withdrew enough to pay or the Loire tour plus a little spending money on Sunday. We used the debit card in my wife's possession. I called again at 6am and was told the use of my debit card had been stopped. There had been $880 charged on it. We were picked up by Cityrama at 6:30am and proceeded on our tour. My stomach was in knots and I couldn't get the incident out of my mind. I should have done something, I kept thinking. We did the best we could to have a good time and returned around 9pm. We didn't sleep well again. I got a cold sweat as I began to think about Murphy's Law (whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, and at the worst possible time). Monday morning we made the best of it. I kept thinking about Murphy's Law. I asked my wife to remove enough cash from another ATM to cover a taxi fare to the airport on Tuesday and meals today. Then, we would charge any purchases. We went to the Arc de Triomphe, walked to the Eiffel Tower, down the Champ du mars, and at lunch at Angelina's. We worked our way back to Trocodero (sp?) for dinner so we could have dinner at the cafe giving us a good view of the Eiffel Tower all lit up. We made the best of it and took some great photos. We walked back. In the morning, I had enough to pay the taxi to the airport. We flew to Washington Dulles prior to continuing on to Houston. During our layover in Washington, we attempted to get some dollars from an ATM and were denied. I called our bank and was told it had been stopped. THE WRONG DEBIT CARD HAD BEEN STOPPED. I had 4 dollars in my pocket and they promised to re-activate the card we had in our possession in 20 minutes. I explained that I needed to be assured that it would happen since we needed a hotel in Houston prior to going home. They said they would. So, we boarded the plane and hoped for the best knowing that the bank would close by the time we arrived in Houston. In the meantime another $680 had been charged on my stolen debit card on Tuesday. More later.

Lysette

I'm really sorry this happened to you joram, and your experience is why American credit card companies need to get with the program of the chip & pin technology.

I wonder if professional thieves are specifically targeting North Americans because they know our credit cards don't require pin numbers to use.

Nina66

Yes .... you could have hit him, perhaps knocking him down and fleeing in time to save your wallet.

AND .. he could have had a knife or possibly a gun and seriously or critically injured you. He could have thrown you to the ground, injurying your back. Can you imagine your poor wife, turning around to find her beloved husband, seriously injured or possibly dead? You did what a thinking person would have done. You saved yourself and possibly your wife from heavens knows what. How would she have dealt with the situation all alone, hospital, etc...

My husband stopped in a cookie store in downtown San Francisco after work to buy a cookie. He saw a homeless looking person huddled in the corner, sitting on the floor. He ordered his single cookie and the next thing he knew, an arm was across his shoulder and he was looking down at a gun pointed towards the store clerk. The perpetrator repeated over and over "I told you to just give me the money, I am serious."

The clerk hesitated and then finally gave him the money in the register, and the suspect fled out the door on Market Street, with DH in pursuit. _Fortunately_, DH never caught up with him.

The clerk begged my husband to stay and talk to the police, as the secuity camera was broken and he was afraid his bosses wouldn't believe him. DH complied and gave the officers a description of the suspect and the gun.

DH then put his money on the counter and asked for the cookie that he had come in for. The clerk took his money and gave him the cookie as if nothing had happened. (I would have at least expected a few free cookies - but that's me, not DH).

DH told his father, the great white hunter and father of a woman Highway Patrol Officer (who has had inside duty for years) what had happened. His father chastised him for not grabbing the guy's gun and knocking him to the ground!!!!! He never considered for one minute that the suspect could have shot the clerk, or injured his own son.

So you and DH don't have the 'killer instinct", is that something that is desirable? It is to DH's father, and I'm sure that he thinks his only son is a woos, but it makes him, and probably you, even more loveable to me and to your wife.

You are no less a man for not trying to be a super-hero. I'm sure that your wife would rather lose the $$ than her husband, and has probably told you that a hundred times by now.

It was a horrifying experience and I am so sorry that you had to go through it, but please don't continue to blame yourself, don't let it eat away at you. You saved your family and that is the most important thing.

I was involved in a violent situation 35 years ago, and I am still hearing, who should have done what. I WAS THERE, just as you were, and you know what happened, and that you did what you had to do. Don't try to justify your actions to yourself - you made the right spur of the moment choice. Don't dwell on it, or you'll continue to relive that moment over and over and over, for the rest of your life.

Nina

OReilly

Joram, that’s really awful! As others have said, it may seem possible in hindsight, but in the moment, there is probably nothing you could have done – these guys are professional. Also, the fact is that he may well have had a weapon and had you fought back, could have used it.

Something similar happened to my husband in Venezuela. He was young and very fit and he was angry he did not at least land a punch. When he said this to the tour guide, he was told that he was damn lucky he did not – at least he only lost his cards and money. It took him a long time to get over the shock. This is only natural.

That incident has made my husband very cautious when traveling and on our last visit to Paris together, walking along the Champs, we definitely saw evidence of being “marked” by a well-dressed man. It wasn’t paranoia – we ducked into several shops and this man always seemed to appear. We split up, and watched him watching us in turn. Its possible that you were “marked” in the same way.

What you should NOT be doing is beating yourself up about not reacting fast enough or fighting him off. It was a frightening experience – you were violated. I think these guys probably target couples, knowing that a man’s first instinct will be to look after the safety of his wife and is therefore more vulnerable to personal attack. Most women have an instinctive reaction to clutch their handbags to their body when in crowds, which would make them a less inviting target.

I travel on my own to Europe every month on business and had my handbag stolen at Milan airport, containing ALL my credit cards AND passport. I was just lucky that I had arrived on business and my wonderful colleagues helped me with cash and getting a new passport from the Canadian embassy. There was no violence involved, but I had been stalked from the moment I arrived by two women and I was just stupid, having put my handbag on top of the baggage trolley. The cops, who were very charming, but as useless as tits on a bull, told me that Malpensa was being “worked” by a criminal gang from South America (which certainly ties into what I had noticed). Somehow, this was supposed to make me feel better, that I wasn’t the victim of an Italian gang of thieves. Actually, the head policeman asked me to tell all my friends that these thieves were NOT Italian! For at least a year after, I wanted to meet up with these women and personally beat the tar out of them – I found it very difficult to lose the anger.

What I learned from that experience is to have a separate set of cash and credit cards in a separate bag, so if one is stolen, I have a backup.

P_M

joram, you did not let your wife down because you are still alive and well. Thank God you didn't have that "killer instinct" because the killer instinct could have gotten you killed. Keep reminding yourself: You are alive and you will go on enjoying life. I know it will take some time, but please stop beating yourself up (no pun intended). You DID do all you could do under the circumstances. This situation could have been many times worse. You are a survivor and a very lucky man.