Miracle of the Holy Blood Debunked
Jun 25th, 2007, 08:24 AM
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Miracle of the Holy Blood Debunked
There seems no end to Europe's vials of Holy Blood that mysteriously change from a solid state to liquid for a short time, usually on the saint's holy day.
Report to follow with an Italian chemist who claims he can replicate the liquifying of blood from dark brown solid matter
Report to follow with an Italian chemist who claims he can replicate the liquifying of blood from dark brown solid matter
Jun 25th, 2007, 09:21 AM
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Well these Italian chemists who have replicated the 'miracles' such as they first examined, in Naples with the blood of St Gennaro, no doubt did not spend their lives trying just to debunk this - but with their advanced studies just knew that this is such an easy 'trick' that medieval alchemists even knew how to do it.
Jun 25th, 2007, 10:05 AM
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There is really no "debunking" involved here.
Some people believe in these things as a matter of faith (obviuosly realizing that there are many ways such "miracles" can be made to happen) and that s certaily their right.
Others look at them as historical curiosities - of a time when most people had no education and such "miraculous objects" were used to instill religious values and ethics.
Even 1500 years ago, when the mother of the Emperor Constantine was searching the globe to find as many relics of Jesus and various saints as possible to donate to various churches - it was well known that the objects she was buying had no proven provenance (and she bought enough splinters of the true cross to build a large barn).
So - some people choose to have faith in these objects as part of their belief system, and some are interested in history. but I don;t think the "debunking" is any surprise to anyone.
Some people believe in these things as a matter of faith (obviuosly realizing that there are many ways such "miracles" can be made to happen) and that s certaily their right.
Others look at them as historical curiosities - of a time when most people had no education and such "miraculous objects" were used to instill religious values and ethics.
Even 1500 years ago, when the mother of the Emperor Constantine was searching the globe to find as many relics of Jesus and various saints as possible to donate to various churches - it was well known that the objects she was buying had no proven provenance (and she bought enough splinters of the true cross to build a large barn).
So - some people choose to have faith in these objects as part of their belief system, and some are interested in history. but I don;t think the "debunking" is any surprise to anyone.
Jun 25th, 2007, 10:12 AM
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except for Naples church officials and Vatican
"the ceremony performed at Naples Cathedral dates from 1389 and now attracts a television audience of millions. Bad luck is believed to hit Naples, and more recently, its football team if the miracle fails to occur, which it has from time to time"
i say debunk i mean debunk the faith that the faithful still seem to think a miracle is being performed when really it's elementary chemistry.
And Naples church authorities also refuse to allow the blood to be examined or tested. A leap of faith really.
"the ceremony performed at Naples Cathedral dates from 1389 and now attracts a television audience of millions. Bad luck is believed to hit Naples, and more recently, its football team if the miracle fails to occur, which it has from time to time"
i say debunk i mean debunk the faith that the faithful still seem to think a miracle is being performed when really it's elementary chemistry.
And Naples church authorities also refuse to allow the blood to be examined or tested. A leap of faith really.
Jun 26th, 2007, 07:35 AM
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The scientists, from the neurology department of Milan's San Paolo Hospital proposed that the miracle "might be a thixotropic effect, by which certain gels turn into liquids when they are stirred or vibrated before resolidifying.
To support his hypothesis they tried to make a gel which not only resembled blood but used ingredients that would have been available in the 1300s.
A solution of hydrated ferric chloride carbonate was slowly added, was seived thru a tube. animal gut or parchment would work just as well one scientist said. The solution was allowed to evaporate after which salt was added.
the resulting gel liquefied when shaken gently around in a glass container of the kind for the saint's blood.
A color match was made by barying the levels of salt. Ferric chloride is plentiful in molysite, found around active volcanoes like Vesuvius, near Naples.
Dr Garlaschelli, whose findings were published in the British journal Nature under the headline Working Blood Miracles, speculates that a medieval alcehmist or artist might have stumbled across the recipe while experimenting or in search of a new pigment.
The Dr says "The chemical nature of the Naples relic can be established only by opening the vial, but a complete anaylsis is forbidden by the Catholic Church. Our replication of the phenomenon seems to render this sacrifice unnecessary
To support his hypothesis they tried to make a gel which not only resembled blood but used ingredients that would have been available in the 1300s.
A solution of hydrated ferric chloride carbonate was slowly added, was seived thru a tube. animal gut or parchment would work just as well one scientist said. The solution was allowed to evaporate after which salt was added.
the resulting gel liquefied when shaken gently around in a glass container of the kind for the saint's blood.
A color match was made by barying the levels of salt. Ferric chloride is plentiful in molysite, found around active volcanoes like Vesuvius, near Naples.
Dr Garlaschelli, whose findings were published in the British journal Nature under the headline Working Blood Miracles, speculates that a medieval alcehmist or artist might have stumbled across the recipe while experimenting or in search of a new pigment.
The Dr says "The chemical nature of the Naples relic can be established only by opening the vial, but a complete anaylsis is forbidden by the Catholic Church. Our replication of the phenomenon seems to render this sacrifice unnecessary
Jun 26th, 2007, 09:43 AM
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<What's the purpose of posting this on the Fodor's website--or for that matter--for posting it at all?>
What's the difference to you? Things i feel are tourist related like this - to gain insight into things like Holy Blood you see at many churches to me is valuable. I like to be informed. And i've actually seen the Holy Blood thing in Naples one year.
If you don't like it why take time to even click on it - just move on and save yourself some time.
What's the difference to you? Things i feel are tourist related like this - to gain insight into things like Holy Blood you see at many churches to me is valuable. I like to be informed. And i've actually seen the Holy Blood thing in Naples one year.
If you don't like it why take time to even click on it - just move on and save yourself some time.
Jun 26th, 2007, 09:48 AM
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Author: Pegontheroad
Date: 08/03/2006
I love watching TV when I travel! Years ago, I remember watching "The Lone Ranger" in Japanese, and on one of our recent trips, we watched one of those Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Great fun! But I think my favorite was watching the Olympic diving competition in France--I think it was in 1998--when the announcer said, "Ooh, la la!" after a particularly impressive dive. We loved that!
My stay in Germany this summer was full of bad TV--shows about making cheese and duplicates of shows selling vacation packages. There was one program I liked, though--"Quiz Taxi"--which is like our "Cash Cab" but sweeter.
<What's the purpose of posting this on the Fodor's website--or for that matter--for posting it at all?>
the Holy Blood would seem more travel related than what you posted here - i think that too - Do You Watch TV when in Europe to be a valid travel topic, along with Holy Blood fakery.
Date: 08/03/2006
I love watching TV when I travel! Years ago, I remember watching "The Lone Ranger" in Japanese, and on one of our recent trips, we watched one of those Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Great fun! But I think my favorite was watching the Olympic diving competition in France--I think it was in 1998--when the announcer said, "Ooh, la la!" after a particularly impressive dive. We loved that!
My stay in Germany this summer was full of bad TV--shows about making cheese and duplicates of shows selling vacation packages. There was one program I liked, though--"Quiz Taxi"--which is like our "Cash Cab" but sweeter.
<What's the purpose of posting this on the Fodor's website--or for that matter--for posting it at all?>
the Holy Blood would seem more travel related than what you posted here - i think that too - Do You Watch TV when in Europe to be a valid travel topic, along with Holy Blood fakery.
Jun 26th, 2007, 10:04 AM
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Author: Pegontheroad
Date: 05/12/2007
It's kind of comforting to know that the queen is like any other grandma--inept with technology--and that the princes are like any other grandsons, playing little jokes on their relatives.
get the point? casting stones....
Jun 26th, 2007, 10:17 AM
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Author: Pegontheroad
Date: 12/24/2005
Actually, I didn't. My sister chose it for me when she was setting up an account for me on Yahoo. My ISP is a local, cheap and kind of cheesy service that I don't always seem able to access in Europe. Now I use it for some of my accounts, including this one.
<What's the purpose of posting this on the Fodor's website--or for that matter--for posting it at all?>
that you saw fit to respond to the thread where did you get your screen name from is fine with me - we learn bits about each other but how does it fulfill the Q you posed to me. Let's no be so judgmental when it's so easy just to pass the thread by!
Date: 12/24/2005
Actually, I didn't. My sister chose it for me when she was setting up an account for me on Yahoo. My ISP is a local, cheap and kind of cheesy service that I don't always seem able to access in Europe. Now I use it for some of my accounts, including this one.
<What's the purpose of posting this on the Fodor's website--or for that matter--for posting it at all?>
that you saw fit to respond to the thread where did you get your screen name from is fine with me - we learn bits about each other but how does it fulfill the Q you posed to me. Let's no be so judgmental when it's so easy just to pass the thread by!
Jun 26th, 2007, 11:46 AM
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My responses were to threads started by others. I still don't understand why you would post a thread about this kind of thing.
I don't place credence in this sort of "miraculous" relic or manifestation, but if people believe and find comfort in things like this, I don't understand why someone would want to disabuse them of their beliefs.
I don't place credence in this sort of "miraculous" relic or manifestation, but if people believe and find comfort in things like this, I don't understand why someone would want to disabuse them of their beliefs.
Jun 26th, 2007, 11:58 AM
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"I still don't understand why you would post a thread about this kind of thing.
I don't place credence in this sort of "miraculous" relic or manifestation, but if people believe and find comfort in things like this, I don't understand why someone would want to disabuse them of their beliefs."
Why should beliefs like these be given a special privilege that nobody should say anything bad about? Why can't these beliefs be treated just like anything else?
I don't place credence in this sort of "miraculous" relic or manifestation, but if people believe and find comfort in things like this, I don't understand why someone would want to disabuse them of their beliefs."
Why should beliefs like these be given a special privilege that nobody should say anything bad about? Why can't these beliefs be treated just like anything else?
Jun 26th, 2007, 11:58 AM
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so it's not that it's off-travel topic that you object to with the posting but that it casts doubt on some religious views or beliefs you or others have. Interesting rationale.
And i don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that this Holy Blood trap was a fake - people who believe it will not be deterred by my humble posting.
I don't know it's just about telling what others should or should not post that bugs me.
I could respect the view that this doesn't belong on a travel forum - yet to me it does because i may now go back to naples just to witness the miracle of the blood - but not because it might offend someone's to me irrationale believes.
Sincerely, enough said on my part.
And i don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that this Holy Blood trap was a fake - people who believe it will not be deterred by my humble posting.
I don't know it's just about telling what others should or should not post that bugs me.
I could respect the view that this doesn't belong on a travel forum - yet to me it does because i may now go back to naples just to witness the miracle of the blood - but not because it might offend someone's to me irrationale believes.
Sincerely, enough said on my part.
Jun 26th, 2007, 01:54 PM
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What is your theory in that sometimes it gels and sometimes it doesn't? Are the priests playing mind games by making a year seem doomed? I wonder why they would then choose a certain year. Interesting.
