nona1

but even so ...your post was not relevant with regards to going for private treatment in completely different countries to Greece, which is the topic of this thread.

Or are you saying that ALL European medicine, whether socialised or private, is the same terrible quality as your experience?

dgg

Elina, I'm not sure I understand where your husband went for treatment and what kind of treatment he received. In any case, I hope he is ok. Elena, where have you lived and used socialized healthcare? Could you mention the country? Would you share your positive and negative experiences there vs. your positive and negative experiences in the US?

If you want to pursuade me, I need specifics, such as those I gave you. Also, when you were in American hospitals, did you feel you received inferior care to the "socialized" hospitals in the mystery countries you are talking about?

dgg

Oh, Elana, I forgot to mention that when my husband's aunt (in Athens...mainland Greece where the healthcare is 14th in the world) was suffering from breast cancer, she traveled to London for her treatments. She did travel to the US for consultation, but it was impractical for her to travel/stay here for her treatments.

altamiro

>Altamiro, how much time have you spent in Swiss, German and French healthcare facilities?

My French healthcare experience is rather scarce, but I spent 2 weeks in a German hospital with a kidney stone, and another one with appendectomy. I didnīt have to wait for anything (actually I was operated on the same day both times). I also went to a hospital with a non-threatening condition (ingrown toenail) and got an operation appointment within 48 h.
In a case of a knee meniscus inflammation, I was referred to a hospital and was referred to the specialist, with whom I got an apppointment within 48 h, and three other appointments in weekly distance.

In Switzerland, I had a small skiing accident and went to the hospital. I was able to walk on my own, just with some pains. Again - I was treated immediately.

>I can't speak for the German and Swiss, but I've done the French thing and their facilities, on the whole, do not even begin to compare with the average US facilities.

Yes, you are falling for decorum, right? Donīt you thing that their task is to get you healthy, not demonstrate how much money they spend?

>First off, I would like to hear your first hand experiences and your basis of comparison.

I am not going to tell all small details at a public forum.

Secondly, I would like to know why the wealthiest people in the world choose to come to America for the most serious of their medical treatment.

Oh really? So waht are those damn Saudi royals doing, crowding the university hospitals in Geneva and Zürich? Probably too poor to go to USA, these poor pitiable royals...

>I'm sure there is good healthcare in other parts of the world, but you will not find in consistently across the board as you will in the US.

Yes, you will - unless you wat to throw entire Europe in one pot. But then, let me throw both Americas in one pot - do you think you get a good treatment in Guatemala?

Most importantly, I leave you with these very old words of wisdom...BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

Please, everyone who wishes to comment on how "silly" I am, let me know your SPECIFIC experiences in the other (socialized) places you feel are so wonderful. If you can't do that, then just don't bother with your nonsense rhetoric.

dgg

Elina, please don't be so simple. There are brilliant minds and brilliant physicians throughout the world. Are you suggesting that I think that only Americans are smart or clean? THAT is silly!!! What I am saying is that socialized medicine is not the answer because it is so limiting...to the physicians, to the facilities, to the drug companies, to the researchers and to the patients. I don't know all the answers...if I did, I would be on CNN or the BBC every night. It is so complex. What I do know is that I'm glad to have so many options available to me through my private healthcare insurance in the US. I'm glad that brilliant minds throughout the world can come to the US to study and research knowing that their rewards will not be limited. I'm glad to know that Americans with health insurance can vote no with their feet and choose alternative hospitals and physicians, thereby putting incompetant ones out of business.

altamiro

>she traveled to London for her treatments

I hope you understand that British health care system is the most "socialized" on the entire continent?

altamiro

>What I do know is that I'm glad to have so many options available to me through my private healthcare insurance in the US.

More or less the same is available to me through my insurance in Germany. And I pay more or less the same into my insurance that you oay into yours. The difference is that MY insurance is not allowed to "drop" me (because I become a "bad risk&quot at a time when I most depreately need them.

dgg

Altamiro, I hope your ingrown toenail has healed well. I hate to be rude, but you make no sense. You are emotional and are commenting about healthcare because you were treated quickly for your ingrown toenail! I guess in some ways you are correct. In most US hospitals, you would still be sitting in the ER for your serious condition. PLEASE!!!

dgg

Altamiro, you mentioned the socialized healthcare in London and quite honestly, I'm not sure why my husband's aunt chose London. I know that her husband was a physician (as well as a lawyer). They must have had some connections there or felt that was their best option. Sadly, she passed away about 3 years ago and the uncle followed shortly thereafter. We'll never know.

SloJan2

Dgg, I think you are basing your argument on one occurence. You can not damn the whole concept of socialized medicine on one personal experience. Sure, the US has the best care for heavy duty cases, but a case of impetigo (which is what your daughter had) can be treated anywhere in the world (exc. maybe for Greece and Italy which is where my kids have it). I think many of the posters who responded to you have much more experience in this area than you seem to.

There is a demand for medical tourism and that is good. Until we get cost controls in place in our country as well as the liability system, people need to vote with their wallets on elective procedures.

As far as an mri for a broken collarbone? Talk about overkill. THAT is why our system is screwed up.

altamiro

>I hate to be rude,

Then donīt be.

but you make no sense. You are emotional and are commenting about healthcare because you were treated quickly for your ingrown toenail!

OK, I guess you have skipped the rest of the posts.
You also seem to believe that somebody claimed US healthcare were bad, and charge to the rescue of their honour. In fact, the point was that you can get a comparable quality for less money.
Are you in insurance business?

nona1

Ah but DGG I could agree with most of your recent points, but that wasn't what your OP said. You described a terrible situation and said 'THAT, MY FRIENDS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR SOCIALIZED MEDICINE'. That socialised medicine systems will put you in a dirty room, neglect you, treat you poorly, not provide what you need etc, in the way your experienced.

We are just saying no, that's what you got in one hospital in one country, and you can't generalise about all socialised systems. Many, if not most, are excellent. I can't complain about any of the treatment I've received, or my family have received, and that includes my son being in hospital for over 3 weeks with a very serious condition. My mother being treated for skin cancer. My now elderly parents receiving excellent care for their diabetes and other age-related problems. 3 of us having our appendixes out. My brother having a knee operation. Not to mention all the GP care for the less serious stuff.
Our hospital rooms were always clean and efficient, the staff good, and so on. OK, sometimes a lick of paint would have improved things, but I don't care about the cosmetics of where I am treated, I just want to get well. Incidentally, over here you can choose your hospital and even consultant/surgeon, even under the socialised system. Most people don't bother, they just go to the most local, but you can.

Like I said, I think all medical systems have their flaws. I certainly wouldn't say socialised care is perfect. But I can't just keep quiet when someone posts that it always means the disgusting treatment you received.

elina

>>>Elina, please don't be so simple. There are brilliant minds and brilliant physicians throughout the world. Are you suggesting that I think that only Americans are smart or clean? THAT is silly!!<<<

Huh, are you talking to me? Where on earth did I claim something like that? I just told how "sosialized medicine" worked for my husband.

>>>Elina, I'm not sure I understand where your husband went for treatment and what kind of treatment he received. In any case, I hope he is ok. Elena, where have you lived and used socialized healthcare? Could you mention the country?<<<

Sure, I live in Finland. I have lived also in the US and France, but those where all very healthy years and I didnīt need any medical care. So practically I have lived with that "socialized health care" all my life. And like I said, the treatment my husband got was a cancer operation, with just about everything in his stomach taken out. The whole fun for 100 €.

>>> What I am saying is that socialized medicine is not the answer because it is so limiting...to the physicians, to the facilities, to the drug companies, to the researchers and to the patients. <<<

See now, that is something you donīt seem to understand. It doesnīt limit anything. There are also private hospitals and clinics, you can go there if you want to, or if the queue is too long for some minor thing. And even those donīt cost fortunes: A visit to a general practioner is about 40 €, a specialist 60 €.

Pvoyageuse

"let me know your SPECIFIC experiences in the other (socialized) places you feel are so wonderful. If you can't do that, then just don't bother with your nonsense rhetoric".

In France, hospitals and private clinics do not provide gowns, towels, toiletries, bottled water and ice. You bring our own.

I have never heard of nurses writing prescriptions other than for over the counter medecine. They have no authority for that.

I've been to both private clinics and the local public hospital. Never expected to go in for a gastronomical treat. Amazingly, the food was better (in the "just edible" category) in the public hospital.

You speak of two-level health care in Greece, one for the rich, one for the poor then you wonder why the "richest people in the world" go to America for treatment. I do not find it very consistent.

You write "it would have been free if you had been a resident or working in Greece". Isn't it normal? You would have paid taxes and this is (partly) what taxes are for.
Do foreigners get free healthcare in the US?

You had a very bad experience in Greece, I am sorry for it and hope your daughter has now fully recovered. But please do not generalize.

hetismij

This is all rather off an old topic.
DGG I am sorry for your experiences in one hospital in Greece. The fact that it was your daughter makes it more emotional and difficult for you. Maybe you should have asked your hotel manager for help with your daughter before going to that hospital.
Why would anyone need an MRI for a broken collar bone? An X-ray will show it is broken, a few days in a sling and it will be mended. MRIs for such things are one reason why US health care is so expensive.
I live in a country with socialised health care. I have no complaints. I lived in the UK for the first half of my life and received excellent treatment there. No doubt if I were to fall ill in Greece I would also recieve excellent treatment there also - by asking locally for help and informing my insurer of my situation and seeking their help in finding suitable treatment.
Back to the original topic. If you need treatment and can't wait for it to be done at home, or can't afford for it to be done at home, then why not go to another country for it. Eastern European doctors and dentists are as well qualified as any other. You don't stop anyone from that country getting treatment, indeed your payment help keep health care affordable for the locals. It seems to me to be a win-win situation. You provide the doctor/dentist with an income which means they can afford to stay in their home country and treat their own people instead of emigrating, and you get first class treatment at an affordable price.
Medical tourism is a fact of life nowadays, and always has been.

GSteed

Life expectancy:
USA: males 74 years females 80
Greece: males 76 Females 81

dgg

Please...I'm not trying to create an international cultural clash with my comments. In fact, my comments were more directed to Americans who support socialized healthcare and really don't know what they're in for. As far as generalizations, you are correct, I generalize. But remember, generalizations tend to have some level of accuracy even if they are not politcally correct. Do I think all Greek or French, Swedish, Finnish, German hospitals are dirty...of course not! Do I think that government beauracracy in the management of healthcare facitilites can lead to the carelessness that that I experienced...absolutely!!!

As far as the comments on gastronomical treats, dressing gowns, water, etc., the issues of hygiene, basic nutrition and hydration are very important. I don't think anyone checks into any hospital for the food! That's amusing. What you do expect is that you recieve appropriate nutrition for your condition and do not become dehydrated during your stay in the hospital. The dressing gowns are a matter of hygiene. In my daughter's case, she came straight from the beach. She should have been cleaned and put into a dressing gown ASAP. We did it for her. In the US, a patient cannot leave the room and step outside the front door for a smoke with his IV still in his arm. When you leave the hospital, you're pushed out the front door in a wheelchair and loaded into the car to make sure you don't injure yourself again on the way out. (I'm sure liability insurance has something to do with that too, because we can sue very easily here. That's an entirely different topic.) As far as comments on cost, it seems that everyone misunderstands my point. In the US, one day in the hospital costs in the range of $1000 and that's without extensive treatment. 132 Euro is unbelievably low and would not even begin to cover the costs of medication let alone two nights stay! I was more than happy to pay it. And no...foreigners do not receive free healthcare in the US however, there are many illegal immigrants who are cannot be turned away from emergency medical care in this country, regardless of ability to pay. On the whole however, everyone must either pay, use private insurance or be on some form of public assistance which already causes a tax burden. I certainly did not expect to get free healthcare in Greece. In any case, my private insurance covers my daughter's care, but I haven't even bothered to turn it in for reimbursement yet since it was so low. Would I like to get free healthcare...yes, of course...but at what cost? We are seeing more and more demands on the patients' families in the US to care for their loved ones in the hospital as well. American patients are being sent home from the hospitals very soon, often too soon, after surgeries. These are signs of the socialization of our medicine. If you read my earlier post, you will see my comments on our HMOs. Once you've recieved excellent care with private insurance, it's very difficult to be treated like a case number under an HMO plan.

Before all of you jump down my throat, you must understand the situation in America. It's a huge, diverse country. Elina, Finland's population is the size of the greater metropolitan area of my city and far less diverse socially and economicaly. You can argue the merits of that comment, but it's important. Regardless, good healthcare must be provided to all, but socialized medicine is not the answer for us. We "ugly Americans" are perhaps spoiled. We expect excellent, prompt service. We don't like to wait or receive inferior products or care. Our expectations are high. My husband's father is Greek and my mother was Italian. We're not so far from our roots in Europe, yet we are accustomed to our way of life in the US. To introduce socialized medicine in this country would be driving an even greater wedge between the classes even though the intentions would be otherwise.

In the States, we have a relatively early "tax freedom" day...around the end of April. In Canada, the UK, Germany, etc. Tax Freedom is 30 to 70 or more days later. In Scandinavian countries it's even later than that. Ours would be extended greatly and in return, for the vast majority of Americans, our services would be diminshed, not enhanced. We simply have too many places where money needs to be spent.

I certainly cannot speak for all Americans, but for the ones I know, I can safely say that we like our choice and the freedom to choose how our money is spent. Our healthcare system is very far from perfect, but there is choice and availability which is comforting.

dgg

GSTEED...You are absolutely correct. I think it's that Med diet, the smoking and the wine combined with long walks and much time spent with friends in tavernas drinking ouzo until the wee hours. I was reading that as Greeks (and Cretans in particular) become more "Westernized," in their habits their life expectancy has fallen. Anyway, I wish we had more of their lifestyle. Why haven't we figured that out over here? I also don't think they rush to the doctor for every ache and pain. Nothing can kill you faster than the meddling of a doctor.

dgg

One other thing, I don't think they have the gang shootings and drug problems, among other things, that we have in the States. That certainly must affect average life expectancy.

Pvoyageuse

Gang shootings, probably not.
Drug problems ; definitely yes.