Maybe a ridiculous question but one worth discussing. What would happen if Americans and Canadians boycotted the Euro? No travel or buy any European products for a month.
Mar 9th, 2008, 07:46 AM
#201
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alanRow: Fair enough. My issue is that there isn't enough disclaimer.
Allowing Darfur to happen is a global failure. Accordingly, the US doesn't lose any more points than the UK does for standing by. Pinchme may have been wide of the mark, but pointing to instances where the entire international community failed does not really refute the claim that the US has done more, does it? I mean, even if you come up with 100 such examples where the US and Europe stood by, pinchme only has to point to a single instance where the US did something when no one else would for the score to be 1-0-100.
All I am asking for is for the pro-European contingent, which seems so quick to blame the US for the problems of the world, to provide some examples where they actually effected positive change that the US wouldn't/didn't. I'm sure there must be some examples, but they are never offered up. Instead, we hear the same arguments about how Iraq is bad, which conveniently and consistently seem to absolve the many European states that participated or assisted, of any guilt whatsoever. It is all just too convenient for me - "don't blame me, I voted for the other guy"...
Allowing Darfur to happen is a global failure. Accordingly, the US doesn't lose any more points than the UK does for standing by. Pinchme may have been wide of the mark, but pointing to instances where the entire international community failed does not really refute the claim that the US has done more, does it? I mean, even if you come up with 100 such examples where the US and Europe stood by, pinchme only has to point to a single instance where the US did something when no one else would for the score to be 1-0-100.
All I am asking for is for the pro-European contingent, which seems so quick to blame the US for the problems of the world, to provide some examples where they actually effected positive change that the US wouldn't/didn't. I'm sure there must be some examples, but they are never offered up. Instead, we hear the same arguments about how Iraq is bad, which conveniently and consistently seem to absolve the many European states that participated or assisted, of any guilt whatsoever. It is all just too convenient for me - "don't blame me, I voted for the other guy"...
Mar 9th, 2008, 09:11 AM
#202
>> Oh, and Kurds make up around 17% of Iraq's population, not 10%.
This statement by travelgourmet seems to imply that Saddam oppressed 100% of the Kurds and nobody from any other ethnic group.
Not only did certain Kurdish groups support Saddam, but he was much more violent against certain other non-Kurdish minorities.
But I don't expect travelgourmet to be aware of this.
This statement by travelgourmet seems to imply that Saddam oppressed 100% of the Kurds and nobody from any other ethnic group.
Not only did certain Kurdish groups support Saddam, but he was much more violent against certain other non-Kurdish minorities.
But I don't expect travelgourmet to be aware of this.
Mar 9th, 2008, 09:16 AM
#203
As for European nations taking care of problems that the United States will not touch, here's a link that might inform you of a few things from which the U.S. averted its eyes:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5769
Of course if you Google around a few things including the key words "gendarme of Africa" you might find lots more information.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5769
Of course if you Google around a few things including the key words "gendarme of Africa" you might find lots more information.
Mar 9th, 2008, 09:55 AM
#204
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<i>But I don't expect travelgourmet to be aware of this.</i>
And why not? I never meant to imply that Saddam was overly discriminatory. I believe I was pretty clear in my opinion that the man was a homicidal maniac. It was you who chose to point out that his actions were somehow ok, because "only 10%" of the population might need to fear for their lives at any point in time.
I understand that you are anti-US, or at least anti-Bush. That is fine. But, don't try to label me as uninformed because I'm not as willing as you to pretend that Iraq was a Garden of Eden before the US went in. I can assure you that my views are much more nuanced and well-informed than you can ever begin to conceive.
My larger point was that I question the ethics of dismissing the suffering of, say 10% of the population of a country, simply to make a point about how much you dislike George Bush. But, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Feel free to scream your hatred for W from the rooftops. But have the decency and the intellectual honesty to admit that Saddam Hussein was a bad, bad man.
And why not? I never meant to imply that Saddam was overly discriminatory. I believe I was pretty clear in my opinion that the man was a homicidal maniac. It was you who chose to point out that his actions were somehow ok, because "only 10%" of the population might need to fear for their lives at any point in time.
I understand that you are anti-US, or at least anti-Bush. That is fine. But, don't try to label me as uninformed because I'm not as willing as you to pretend that Iraq was a Garden of Eden before the US went in. I can assure you that my views are much more nuanced and well-informed than you can ever begin to conceive.
My larger point was that I question the ethics of dismissing the suffering of, say 10% of the population of a country, simply to make a point about how much you dislike George Bush. But, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Feel free to scream your hatred for W from the rooftops. But have the decency and the intellectual honesty to admit that Saddam Hussein was a bad, bad man.
Mar 9th, 2008, 10:26 AM
#205
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Franco was a bad bad bad man and the US government didn't give a damn about him, there was no oil here. I think the problem is not Saddam being any good (he wasn't), the problem is that they didn't attack Irak because of him...
And please, don't talk about Spain as a nation when you say it supported the war. Spanish government did without the support of any other party nor the population. I always try to talk about US Government...I don't think the average American always agrees with the government.
And please, don't talk about Spain as a nation when you say it supported the war. Spanish government did without the support of any other party nor the population. I always try to talk about US Government...I don't think the average American always agrees with the government.
Mar 9th, 2008, 11:20 AM
#206
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However much they love their country, I am sure that most Europeans will acknowledge the mistakes that their countries have made.
What we find annoying is the assumption by some Americans that their country is unique in the rights of its citizens, and in the inherent virtue of their country's actions.
What we find annoying is the assumption by some Americans that their country is unique in the rights of its citizens, and in the inherent virtue of their country's actions.
Mar 9th, 2008, 12:28 PM
#207
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<i>What we find annoying is the assumption by some Americans that their country is unique in the rights of its citizens, and in the inherent virtue of their country's actions.</i>
And I agree with that. I just feel that in the zeal of many to point out how unvirtuous the US can be, that notions of Europe's moral superiority have begun to creep into a lot of these discussions. I'm just trying to keep both sides honest. I personally think that the differences in civil liberties between most of the advanced industrial democracies don't amount to a hill of beans. I also think that searching for virtue in any country's foreign policy is a sure recipe for disappointment.
And I agree with that. I just feel that in the zeal of many to point out how unvirtuous the US can be, that notions of Europe's moral superiority have begun to creep into a lot of these discussions. I'm just trying to keep both sides honest. I personally think that the differences in civil liberties between most of the advanced industrial democracies don't amount to a hill of beans. I also think that searching for virtue in any country's foreign policy is a sure recipe for disappointment.
Mar 9th, 2008, 01:36 PM
#208
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virtues ? in politics ? I think that is a not known term 
I'm very critic with Spanish Governments, no matter the party which wins the elections and I believe most europeans are. I sometimes feel Americans think that by being critical with the government they are being somewhat "unfaithful" to their country.
I'm very critic with Spanish Governments, no matter the party which wins the elections and I believe most europeans are. I sometimes feel Americans think that by being critical with the government they are being somewhat "unfaithful" to their country.
