Madrid--Is it safe??????
Aug 9th, 2008 | 06:47 AM
#41
Joined: Aug 2007
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"Sadly it is not only in Madrid where the influx of foreigners that now travel freely within the EU (+ others)has changed things and not for the better."
My friends in Rome and Barcelona have said the same thing. Many people are quick to label citizens of those places xenophobic, but they have seen the change over time ( including : statistics on crime, news, personal experiences ect. We visit once and come back with less than favorable view of their city - the place they are usually very proud of.
My friends in Rome and Barcelona have said the same thing. Many people are quick to label citizens of those places xenophobic, but they have seen the change over time ( including : statistics on crime, news, personal experiences ect. We visit once and come back with less than favorable view of their city - the place they are usually very proud of.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 08:59 AM
#42
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<i>My friends in Rome and Barcelona have said the same thing. Many people are quick to label citizens of those places xenophobic, but they have seen the change over time ( including : statistics on crime, news, personal experiences ect.</i>
We are so quick to label it xenophobia, because it is xenophobia. Blaming "The Other" for crime or corruption or other social ills is nothing new or unique. I understand that people are scared or upset, but that doesn't excuse scapegoating minority groups.
Moreover, people "seeing the change over time" is not the same as proving a causal connection. Don't confuse coincidence with causality. Showing that minority groups commit more crimes is not the same as saying, ceteris paribus, that those minority groups are more likely to commit crimes. Indeed, given the strong correlation between poverty and crime, it is just as likely that the incidence of poverty among these groups explains the prevalence of crime among certain minority groups, as it is that it is any inherent trait of that race or culture.
Disregarding this connection leads to a viscous cycle. Roma (or African Americans or Hispanics or Eastern Europeans or...) are discriminated against, contributing to a higher rate of poverty, which leads to higher rates of crime, which justifies the discrimination. And around we go. Heck, after a generation or two, everyone is happy to forget about the initial discrimination, and even otherwise decent people start to buy into the "justification" for the discrimination. But that "justification" does not make it just or right.
We are so quick to label it xenophobia, because it is xenophobia. Blaming "The Other" for crime or corruption or other social ills is nothing new or unique. I understand that people are scared or upset, but that doesn't excuse scapegoating minority groups.
Moreover, people "seeing the change over time" is not the same as proving a causal connection. Don't confuse coincidence with causality. Showing that minority groups commit more crimes is not the same as saying, ceteris paribus, that those minority groups are more likely to commit crimes. Indeed, given the strong correlation between poverty and crime, it is just as likely that the incidence of poverty among these groups explains the prevalence of crime among certain minority groups, as it is that it is any inherent trait of that race or culture.
Disregarding this connection leads to a viscous cycle. Roma (or African Americans or Hispanics or Eastern Europeans or...) are discriminated against, contributing to a higher rate of poverty, which leads to higher rates of crime, which justifies the discrimination. And around we go. Heck, after a generation or two, everyone is happy to forget about the initial discrimination, and even otherwise decent people start to buy into the "justification" for the discrimination. But that "justification" does not make it just or right.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 09:07 AM
#43
Joined: Aug 2007
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"Disregarding this connection leads to a viscous cycle. Roma (or "African Americans or Hispanics or Eastern Europeans or...) are discriminated against, contributing to a higher rate of poverty, which leads to higher rates of crime, which justifies the discrimination. And around we go. Heck, after a generation or two, everyone is happy to forget about the initial discrimination, and even otherwise decent people start to buy into the "justification" for the discrimination. "
It may be true and is very PC.
Many people in the US ( and other parts of the world) might agree in theory but, as long as " those people" don't move to " our" street, their kids don't go to "our" schools , and so on ...
One only has to look at the recent elections in Italy (and many elections in the US) to see the reality.
It may be true and is very PC.
Many people in the US ( and other parts of the world) might agree in theory but, as long as " those people" don't move to " our" street, their kids don't go to "our" schools , and so on ...
One only has to look at the recent elections in Italy (and many elections in the US) to see the reality.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 01:58 PM
#44
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Could it be that Spain mostly used to be a fairly homogenous country? Reaction to influx of immigrants that don't look like the natives is nothing unusual. Talk to the Italians and the Irish families in the U.S.. Then again, in fairness to someone like Lincasanova who is well travelled and I believe originally an American (hope I am not confusing her with someone else!), perhaps it is best not to simply generalize the north american experience with immigrants to those of spanish? May be, it is not the same reality? What seems pretty apparent is that Spanish police was ineffective in the case of her daughter which is sad.
All this said, I generally agree with travelgourmet. How would a smart and savvy kid of immigrants who just happens to look like his parents feel if he is simply painted with the same brush and openly looked down upon? Open discrimination can drive people to bring the worst out of them. Let me recount an unrelated story. Ten years ago, I was having a coffee with a british business colleague in London. He very politely and with a straight face suggested that countries such as those in Africa etc with population problems should simply sterlize their populations to deal with it given they have made a mess of it all. Although not an african or never been to Africa, I (equally politely and with a straight face) replied that it may also be a solution to the problem of 45% divorce rate in U.K. given it is also such a mess. Actually, I have very close british friends who I deeply appreciate but I really had to give it back to that specific guy. He promptly changed topics
Anyway, hopefully it is not as bad in Madrid and if it is, I hope it gets better.
All this said, I generally agree with travelgourmet. How would a smart and savvy kid of immigrants who just happens to look like his parents feel if he is simply painted with the same brush and openly looked down upon? Open discrimination can drive people to bring the worst out of them. Let me recount an unrelated story. Ten years ago, I was having a coffee with a british business colleague in London. He very politely and with a straight face suggested that countries such as those in Africa etc with population problems should simply sterlize their populations to deal with it given they have made a mess of it all. Although not an african or never been to Africa, I (equally politely and with a straight face) replied that it may also be a solution to the problem of 45% divorce rate in U.K. given it is also such a mess. Actually, I have very close british friends who I deeply appreciate but I really had to give it back to that specific guy. He promptly changed topics
Anyway, hopefully it is not as bad in Madrid and if it is, I hope it gets better.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 04:05 PM
#45
Joined: Aug 2007
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"What seems pretty apparent is that Spanish police was ineffective in the case of her daughter which is sad. "
I am not sure that police in any country get too involved if a group of teens harasses someone on public transit. Not that it should be the case.
I am not sure that police in any country get too involved if a group of teens harasses someone on public transit. Not that it should be the case.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 04:38 PM
#46
Joined: May 2003
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I do not agree with the political correctness of not seeing things as they are, as I said when we visited Tordesillas last year in Spain, it was so evident that the immigration from the EU was the main reason for robberies and assaults going all over the place. Not to acknowledge this and trying to excuse them with political correctness is a one of the maladies of our time, you have to be blind not to see it.
In a small town is even easier. Several, LISTEN to this several persons had their cellphones stolen only to get later dozen of long distance calls in their bills to the country of those recently arrived in town. Not only that , they saw them in many " orchestrated " operations to steal from the locals. Like in a hairdresser or in the
cafe . Some of the recently arrived acting as a decoy and others stealing. Besides locals know most everyone in town and OH!!!..what a surprise these things did not happen before. Of course there were local crooks but this is like a constant attack.
Is this xenophobia ? I do not think so, this is reacting to reality. To say that because people do not like to be stolen or assaulted they are xenophobic is like looking for excuses for criminals.
I think that we have to stop playing the guilty card.
I think we have a right to say what we honestly feel and see with our own eyes and not be called a xenophobic.
In a small town is even easier. Several, LISTEN to this several persons had their cellphones stolen only to get later dozen of long distance calls in their bills to the country of those recently arrived in town. Not only that , they saw them in many " orchestrated " operations to steal from the locals. Like in a hairdresser or in the
cafe . Some of the recently arrived acting as a decoy and others stealing. Besides locals know most everyone in town and OH!!!..what a surprise these things did not happen before. Of course there were local crooks but this is like a constant attack.
Is this xenophobia ? I do not think so, this is reacting to reality. To say that because people do not like to be stolen or assaulted they are xenophobic is like looking for excuses for criminals.
I think that we have to stop playing the guilty card.
I think we have a right to say what we honestly feel and see with our own eyes and not be called a xenophobic.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 05:26 PM
#47
Joined: Aug 2007
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"I think that we have to stop playing the guilty card.
I think we have a right to say what we honestly feel and see with our own eyes and not be called a xenophobic."
I agree with you.
A lot of the people who are full of polite PC , live in gated communities in their own country and don't vote for politicians who just might increase their taxes in order to provide better housing, education and health care for the poor, immigrants or the urban underclass .
I think we have a right to say what we honestly feel and see with our own eyes and not be called a xenophobic."
I agree with you.
A lot of the people who are full of polite PC , live in gated communities in their own country and don't vote for politicians who just might increase their taxes in order to provide better housing, education and health care for the poor, immigrants or the urban underclass .
Aug 9th, 2008 | 06:46 PM
#48
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Really don't want to get involved in this discussion but here is a last post on this thread.
Danon, I live in the United States and definitely not in a gated community. And I am old enough to know a politician or two. Finally, at least where I live, the incident in the subway --if cops are present-- won't happen.
I think I understand the sentiment if you have experienced it first hand or someone else you know has. The question for a country, however, is what to do about it. From a practical standpoint, there are two options no matter what country one talks about. One is to brand all (or specific) immigrants as problems. This will be an easy option that may even be politically popular because after all it may unite the native population in a way. But unfortunately, one filled with nothing positive for the future except to breed more problems like what travelgourmet talks about. Well, unless Spain has a desire and a choice to stop all such immigration. The second is to understand why/what prompts it and try to address it methodically. That may include educating and integrating the newer immigrants to merge into the larger society to respect its rules and laws.
Almost every large country has has this to deal with, currently or in the past, so it isn't a new problem. Here is one link to see parallels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_racism. As I indicated earlier, it may or may not apply as I don't live in Spain (I love the country and its people... it is a marvelous society with tremendous heritage and culture). My only request is that you don't dismiss opinions dissimilar to your own as "politically correct response" because that is a mistake. If you noted, I didn't classify the responses that succeeded my response as incorrect or not politically correct. It is your opinion and I am glad you have one. Heck, I like people to have an opinion or two because they make nice lunch companions
I don't know about you but I think this Michael Phelps guy rocks So here's wishing all the best.
Danon, I live in the United States and definitely not in a gated community. And I am old enough to know a politician or two. Finally, at least where I live, the incident in the subway --if cops are present-- won't happen.
I think I understand the sentiment if you have experienced it first hand or someone else you know has. The question for a country, however, is what to do about it. From a practical standpoint, there are two options no matter what country one talks about. One is to brand all (or specific) immigrants as problems. This will be an easy option that may even be politically popular because after all it may unite the native population in a way. But unfortunately, one filled with nothing positive for the future except to breed more problems like what travelgourmet talks about. Well, unless Spain has a desire and a choice to stop all such immigration. The second is to understand why/what prompts it and try to address it methodically. That may include educating and integrating the newer immigrants to merge into the larger society to respect its rules and laws.
Almost every large country has has this to deal with, currently or in the past, so it isn't a new problem. Here is one link to see parallels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_racism. As I indicated earlier, it may or may not apply as I don't live in Spain (I love the country and its people... it is a marvelous society with tremendous heritage and culture). My only request is that you don't dismiss opinions dissimilar to your own as "politically correct response" because that is a mistake. If you noted, I didn't classify the responses that succeeded my response as incorrect or not politically correct. It is your opinion and I am glad you have one. Heck, I like people to have an opinion or two because they make nice lunch companions
I don't know about you but I think this Michael Phelps guy rocks
So here's wishing all the best.
Aug 9th, 2008 | 07:33 PM
#49
Joined: Jun 2004
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i don't see where there was any implication that all immmigants were causing problems. it obviously is only the undesireables that are creating this state of anxiety. the other hard working ones, who actually go to a normal job and live on a normal spanish salary, are just as concerned as i am about the crime.
what to do about it? first of all.. the police DO shrug their shoulders as there is not a whole lot they CAN do .. even when caught.. the thieves go free unless the amount stolen is above 3,000 euros, i think. they walk out the side door of the police station snickering and smiling.
i know.. have heard it all first hand from policemen, themselves.
you know.. if you want the REAL story.. talk to the locals. talk to the police. talk to the store owners. talk to the restaurant owners and small business owners.read the local paper, not USA Today or the Herald Tribune.
our judicial system is still light years away from what it should be in today's society.
Until these thieves/muggers are severely punished.. or PUNISHED and removed from the streets.. spain will have more problems than we ever had hoped. this goes for all criminals.. teh sentences are due for a real revision.
and... the harrassing on the tram got physical with one passenger.. the girl was actually kicking her with her dirty bare feet and asking her why she wasn't giving her the money she was asking for. (there were FIVE of these b****es.)
i have knocked on wood til now, but i feel my day is coming. and i hate to say it.. but .. that's how i feel.
i also just found out this week about a friend from n.z. who rented an apt. in barcelona last week. ALL THEIR BELONGINGS WERE ROBBED by the cleaning woman the day before they were to leave.
they spent 6 hours in the police station and have a court date in two months' time. i will post the apt. info as soon as i get back and speak to her directly as she rented it through an agency online.
so.. it never ends.
what to do about it? first of all.. the police DO shrug their shoulders as there is not a whole lot they CAN do .. even when caught.. the thieves go free unless the amount stolen is above 3,000 euros, i think. they walk out the side door of the police station snickering and smiling.
i know.. have heard it all first hand from policemen, themselves.
you know.. if you want the REAL story.. talk to the locals. talk to the police. talk to the store owners. talk to the restaurant owners and small business owners.read the local paper, not USA Today or the Herald Tribune.
our judicial system is still light years away from what it should be in today's society.
Until these thieves/muggers are severely punished.. or PUNISHED and removed from the streets.. spain will have more problems than we ever had hoped. this goes for all criminals.. teh sentences are due for a real revision.
and... the harrassing on the tram got physical with one passenger.. the girl was actually kicking her with her dirty bare feet and asking her why she wasn't giving her the money she was asking for. (there were FIVE of these b****es.)
i have knocked on wood til now, but i feel my day is coming. and i hate to say it.. but .. that's how i feel.
i also just found out this week about a friend from n.z. who rented an apt. in barcelona last week. ALL THEIR BELONGINGS WERE ROBBED by the cleaning woman the day before they were to leave.
they spent 6 hours in the police station and have a court date in two months' time. i will post the apt. info as soon as i get back and speak to her directly as she rented it through an agency online.
so.. it never ends.
Sep 3rd, 2008 | 07:29 PM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just following up. We were in Madrid for 3 days last week. We took a taxi from and back to the airport - metered, no problem, 25 Euros each way (our hotel was near the Puerta del Sol). We spent 3 days walking around town. We never saw any gangs, nor muggings, nor pickpockets, or anything else of the sort, and we were definitely in areas where tourists would be targeted. (We didn't use the metro).I'm not suggesting the anecdotal reports are untrue, just that it's not pervasive, and I certainly wouldn't let those reports keep me from visting this beautiful city!
Sep 4th, 2008 | 12:09 AM
#51
Joined: May 2007
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Ditto, dmlove.
Last time I was in Madrid, I stayed in Chueca, rode the Metro at any time day or night, roamed around the neighborhood I was staying at until the morning hours, and so on.
Does that mean, I think that Madrid knows no petty crime? No, but I had my wallet buried deep down in main compartment of my back pack, did not take more than €50 cash, just one CC, and no fancy camera.
If you don't carry anything worth to pick and not in your pocket, a pickpocket is not a major threat.
If you are unwilling or unable to adjust, you should not go to many places on this planet, maybe or maybe not also including Madrid.
Re. "local expertise": You can live in THE most safe city on the planet, and still have local people from the even better side of town worrying about safety in the a tiny bit worse part of town. While I never heard much said about safety issues in cities like Berlin and Munich (where I live/d), you will find local people in both towns telling you that trips to certain parts of town are only for people with a death wish.
Will check out Barcelona next week for a week -- and I am NOT shivering
Last time I was in Madrid, I stayed in Chueca, rode the Metro at any time day or night, roamed around the neighborhood I was staying at until the morning hours, and so on.
Does that mean, I think that Madrid knows no petty crime? No, but I had my wallet buried deep down in main compartment of my back pack, did not take more than €50 cash, just one CC, and no fancy camera.
If you don't carry anything worth to pick and not in your pocket, a pickpocket is not a major threat.
If you are unwilling or unable to adjust, you should not go to many places on this planet, maybe or maybe not also including Madrid.
Re. "local expertise": You can live in THE most safe city on the planet, and still have local people from the even better side of town worrying about safety in the a tiny bit worse part of town. While I never heard much said about safety issues in cities like Berlin and Munich (where I live/d), you will find local people in both towns telling you that trips to certain parts of town are only for people with a death wish.
Will check out Barcelona next week for a week -- and I am NOT shivering
Sep 4th, 2008 | 05:36 AM
#53
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
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Here are some statistics for you:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sp-spain/cri-crime
No. 1 in the world for robberies: Spain
I've been to Spain a number of times and was never a victim of crime. I did, however, witness three pickpocketings and one store robbery in the space of two days in Madrid. My personal experience leads me to believe there is a greater risk of encountering petty crime in Spain than in most other places in Europe.
But personal experience is no substitute for statistics. This thread reminds me of the ones where people say you don't need an IDP in Italy because they never got asked for one. Just because you didn't have any crime problems in Spain doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Likewise, just because you got pickpocketed there doesn't mean it's a hotbed of crime.
The statistics speak for themselves.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sp-spain/cri-crime
No. 1 in the world for robberies: Spain
I've been to Spain a number of times and was never a victim of crime. I did, however, witness three pickpocketings and one store robbery in the space of two days in Madrid. My personal experience leads me to believe there is a greater risk of encountering petty crime in Spain than in most other places in Europe.
But personal experience is no substitute for statistics. This thread reminds me of the ones where people say you don't need an IDP in Italy because they never got asked for one. Just because you didn't have any crime problems in Spain doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Likewise, just because you got pickpocketed there doesn't mean it's a hotbed of crime.
The statistics speak for themselves.
