"Madame" or "Mademoiselle"?
Jun 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM
#1
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"Madame" or "Mademoiselle"?
Minor thing, I know, but I don't want to offend anyone on our upcoming trip to Paris. How do you know which to use when addressing a french woman? Is it based on her dress? How youthful she appears? 30ish? 40ish? I'm assuming you don't walk into a store and immediately ask her age. 
Jun 14th, 2005, 06:47 PM
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My understanding is that 'Mademoiselle' is for a young girl, and 'Madame' is a respectful title for any adult woman, and that to address a woman as 'Mademoiselle' might be considered disrespectful by inadvertently reducing the 'status' of the person. So a woman of any age who is old enough to be working would be 'Madame'.
I'll be glad to know if this is on the mark, or needs correcting.
I'll be glad to know if this is on the mark, or needs correcting.
Jun 14th, 2005, 06:48 PM
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If you can't immediately ascertain by a wedding band, go with "madame."
Unless of course they are a child, meaning obviously less than 12.
BTW "madame" where I live more likely denotes a woman in charge of a group of ladies participating in the world's oldest profession. I'd much more likely use ma'am then madame.
Unless of course they are a child, meaning obviously less than 12.
BTW "madame" where I live more likely denotes a woman in charge of a group of ladies participating in the world's oldest profession. I'd much more likely use ma'am then madame.
Jun 15th, 2005, 12:11 AM
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I suspect this is a minefield, with different traps for men and for women, since there are different sorts of hints about status in play - some young women might not be too pleased if some young men call them Madame, but I suspect most women older than about 30 might feel they're being spoken down to if another woman calls them Mademoiselle. This might be one area in which it helps to be visibly a foreigner.
Jun 15th, 2005, 12:24 AM
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Bonjour Jocelyn,
A rather safe rule is
a) less than 20: Mademoiselle (unless you can spot a wedding band)
b) over 20: Madame
c) a young waitress: Mademoiselle (see a)
d) a less young waitress: Madame
If the "madames" take offence at being called so and want to be called Mademoiselle, it means they are much older than what you think ;-)
A rather safe rule is
a) less than 20: Mademoiselle (unless you can spot a wedding band)
b) over 20: Madame
c) a young waitress: Mademoiselle (see a)
d) a less young waitress: Madame
If the "madames" take offence at being called so and want to be called Mademoiselle, it means they are much older than what you think ;-)
Jun 15th, 2005, 12:24 AM
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Use Madame whenever you'd use Ma'am in English, and Mademoiselle whenever you'd use Miss.
Using Mademoiselle is not considered disrespectful unless a woman is so matronly that it is obviously intended sarcastically.
In the case of women who are old enough to be married but still not that old, being called Mademoiselle implies youth and can be a mild compliment, as in the U.S.
In the most formal situations, when the marital status of a woman isn't known, Madame still tends to prevail. But apart from speaking to storeowners, you probably won't encounter such situations, and you can still say Mademoiselle to a saleswoman if she still obviously is a young woman.
Using Mademoiselle is not considered disrespectful unless a woman is so matronly that it is obviously intended sarcastically.
In the case of women who are old enough to be married but still not that old, being called Mademoiselle implies youth and can be a mild compliment, as in the U.S.
In the most formal situations, when the marital status of a woman isn't known, Madame still tends to prevail. But apart from speaking to storeowners, you probably won't encounter such situations, and you can still say Mademoiselle to a saleswoman if she still obviously is a young woman.
Jun 15th, 2005, 12:48 AM
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from executiveplanet.com (2003)
Madame' is a basic title of courtesy for all women, as is 'Monsieur' for men.
Today, the courtesy title 'Mademoiselle' is rarely, if ever, used and should be avoided.
Madame' is a basic title of courtesy for all women, as is 'Monsieur' for men.
Today, the courtesy title 'Mademoiselle' is rarely, if ever, used and should be avoided.
Jun 15th, 2005, 03:37 AM
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In English, to say someone is *a* madam is pejorative, either that she is a professional Madame, or just a bossy pain in the neck. But to use the word "madam" to someone's face is simply a (rather old-fashioned) courtesy while serving them; or, with the right edge, can be sarcastic (as in "If you'll just stop hitting me with your handbag, MADAM....".
And for the Queen it's just "Ma'am" for some reason.
And for the Queen it's just "Ma'am" for some reason.
Jun 15th, 2005, 03:58 AM
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Rizzuto:
"Now if someone could just accurately define the point at which a woman changes from "une femme d'un certain age" to "une femme d'un age certain."
Never. The "seven ages" of a woman are:
Bébé
Petite fille
Adolescente
Jeune fille
Jeune femme
Jeune femme
Femme d'un certain âge
"Now if someone could just accurately define the point at which a woman changes from "une femme d'un certain age" to "une femme d'un age certain."
Never. The "seven ages" of a woman are:
Bébé
Petite fille
Adolescente
Jeune fille
Jeune femme
Jeune femme
Femme d'un certain âge
Jun 15th, 2005, 04:07 AM
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Has anyone ever heard Mademoiselle pronounced as we were told, in youth, to expect to hear it pronounced in France -- mam'zelle?
In fact, I only ever see or saw it in print -- usually as the name given to the French governess in Mitford or L. Diana Cooper's breathy tales of English high-life.
In fact, I only ever see or saw it in print -- usually as the name given to the French governess in Mitford or L. Diana Cooper's breathy tales of English high-life.
