michael_teter

This is fascinating. While in Switzerland I stayed with actual Swiss people. What I experienced there were people who owned 0 or 1 cars per family, lived in small apartments, and had a fraction of the "stuff" we have here. What's more, when I did shop in normal stores, the only consumer good I saw that was excessive was the selection of chocolates (which I can accept, you know?)

Let's compare that to Texas (and many parts of the US). Middle class families own on average one car per adult, with some families owning several cars, plus watercraft (or snowmobiles for those up north). Here, as one person put it, we tend to live in "McMansions". My last home was 2,400 square feet - far larger than we needed, and much more than I desire now. I discovered that the more space you have, the more stuff you end up with.

In Switzerland I saw people with small refrigerators stopping by the local grocer every day or two to get fresh (usually local, I understand) produce and meats, maybe a local wine, and then going home to cook and enjoy a meal together. I didn't see 50" plasma TVs in every shop I passed by, nor in the people's homes. (If you don't have 50" or bigger here, you're just not keeping up...)

So granted, life may be very expensive there, but as I can tell you are paying for the privilege to live in a society where the extremes of income, from the poor to the wealthy, are narrower, and life is more about enjoyment rather than possession.

As for my perception of Europe, I may be naive, but I have read quite a bit about standards of living and actual happiness. One book in particular I enjoyed (and was really eye-opening) was John Kay's Culture and Prosperity: Why Some Nations Are Rich but Most Remain Poor. The part of the world I live in works 50+ hours a week, has lots of stuff, spends inordinate amounts of time in crappy traffic (driving themselves), and gets, or uses, very little vacation time. Surprisingly, the "poor Europeans" appear (and claim) to be enjoying much more leisure time while maintaining simpler lives.

Where I live, people still cannot accept the concept of organized public transportation; they cannot fathom losing their freedom to spend lots of time and money to drive themselves, at 10mph stop-and-go, all over town. In peak traffic, I could spend three hours driving from one side of my metroplex to the other. In Switzerland I could hop a train from Zurich and be in Lugano 4hrs later while napping or reading in relative comfort.

Lastly, for the helpful responder who claimed my attitude of taking my own income to Europe made me a snotty rich American, that's just absurd. I would be doing my job that I do now, taking no jobs or opportunities away from Europeans, but putting my money into their economy. If I had the opportunity to have short-term rental of a flat, I would be paying the reportedly high fees for trash handling. I would be buying local groceries, paying for public transportation, and occasionally buying dinner out. The only taking I would be doing would be some oxygen, modest physical space, and absorption of some culture.

To those of you with constructive criticism and suggestions, I thank you. To the rest... well, this is the internet after all, so what did I expect?

My dream of a year vagabonding, as some call it, is not a rare desire, nor is it particularly selfish or evil. In fact, if more people attempted this, I daresay people across the globe would be more friendly toward each other.

logos999

>I may be naive
That's o.k., you're not going to do it anyway. They never do it. And a dream is much necer than reality. ;-) It's interesting, you consider Taxsas to have a high standard of living. (And even higher than Switzerland.) I do like Texas, but that would never have come to my mind.

logos999

The Swiss are working far too much anyway.

michael_teter

No, I exactly do not consider Texas to have a high standard of living. I said that in Texas we have lots of stuff, big trucks, big houses, and big TVs. That, to me, does not equate to high standard of living.

zeppole

micheal,

Sorry to come to this so late. I moved to Europe two years ago, and the first thing you are going to have to get used to is perfect strangers insulting you (although some of the ones insulting you here seem to have no other kind of internet posting voice). Their concept of traveling is not that it broadens you. It's that it allows you to act superior to other people.

I also support my stay here with an American salary. Not having a car at all (let alone two) has saved me a LOT of money. And in every respect, my husband and I are much happier here. (In Italy.)

You should just go ahead and start pursuing the process where it counts -- with the consulate. Since you want to learn a language while here, also explore whether being enrolled in school yourself abets the visa process.

And an early welcome to Europe!

logos999

So why do the Swiss bring their hard earned money to bank, instead of buying that stuff? They do have the money, while Texans buy all that on credit. Why would ANYBODY relate big TVs to a standard of living in the first place?
Why do you need to move to Switzerland, can you NOT buy a TV anywhere. Sorry, but that's all to difficult for me.

logos999

You could also NOT buy a car and live in NYC, couldn't you?

nancicita

...there's always hope!

travelgourmet

<i>What I experienced there were people who owned 0 or 1 cars per family, lived in small apartments, and had a fraction of the "stuff" we have here.</i>

This is due as much to the expense as anything. A small apartment in Zurich can easily run you more than CHF 2000. Remember that the Swiss tax laws make it very difficult for the average person to buy a home. This puts enormous pressure on the rental market, driving up prices, and (unfortunately for your plans) makes finding apartments exceedingly difficult. You will not have the luxury of being picky.

Most clothing and consumer goods are, at least, 25% more expensive than in someplace like Germany, France, or the UK. I would put it at closer to 50% more expensive than the US, maybe even higher for clothing. Many foodstuffs (meat in particular) are also absurdly expensive. Dining out is even more absurd - even something like a doner kebab and a drink can set you back CHF 10 or more. This would be more tolerable if the food was really good. It isn't.

<i>In Switzerland I saw people with small refrigerators stopping by the local grocer every day or two to get fresh (usually local, I understand) produce and meats, maybe a local wine, and then going home to cook and enjoy a meal together. I didn't see 50" plasma TVs in every shop I passed by, nor in the people's homes.</i>

Well, if you actually pass an electronics store, you will see plenty of LCD (plasma isn't very popular anymore) TVs in the window. InterDiscount, for example, carries most of the major brands and displays them prominently, alongside some of the most ridiculous pictures you have ever seen. And I have also seen several B&O stores here - you don't get more ridiculously materialistic than B&O.

As for the "buy local" thing and small refrigerators, I think you should consider some factors that help drive this. Remember that Switzerland is not part of the EU. They do not have the free movement of goods into and out of the country that France does.

And they have all sorts of other, more subtle, barriers to trade. Among my favorites is that the standards for appliance sizes are slightly different from the rest of Europe, which props up an inefficient domestic appliance industry, since you can't just slide a German stove into a typical Swiss cabinet (I think it is something like 2" too wide). Also the electrical plugs are not quite the same as their neighbors. Smaller European plugs will usually fit, but you will often have trouble with grounded European plugs. Finally, as most people are renters, they usually take whatever appliances comes with the apartment, so the size of the refrigerator, for example, reflects the preferences of the landlord, not necessarily the tenant.

Heck, Switzerland doesn't even use standard-sized passport photos. They have a slightly smaller version that they insist upon using. Of course, they have not the slightest idea that this is the case and insist that they use the same size as everywhere else. Quite comical, really.

All of this, of course, serves to drive up prices and reduce quality. I mean, Swiss wine is okay, but Italian, Spanish, and French wines are probably better value. And, FWIW, I would say that the bulk of the wines I see for sale are French, not Swiss. For foodstuffs, I don't exactly go gaga over the Swiss stuff. You have a lot of pork, which is of the same lean style that you see in the US. You have a lot of mild, relatively flavorless cheeses. Swiss Beef is of strictly supermarket quality - too lean and relatively flavorless (the ground beef is especially poor). The chicken is usually quite good, but a lot of what I see is from Brazil, for some reason. The vegetable selection, though, is usually quite good, but I don't think much of it is grown in Switzerland.

<i>I would be paying the reportedly high fees for trash handling. I would be buying local groceries, paying for public transportation, and occasionally buying dinner out.</i>

The high fees for trash collection are reality. A 35L garbage bag costs CHF 2.02 in Zurich. I believe it was roughly twice that in Zug, but can't remember. As for the general idea, though, I tend to largely agree with you. Switzerland does not have the same tax-supported infrastructure that you might find elsewhere. You pretty much pay separately for everything, including health insurance.

<i>As for my perception of Europe, I may be naive, but I have read quite a bit about standards of living and actual happiness.</i>

The problem, though, is that you have chosen a European country that might be the least like what you are talking about. The Swiss I work with work pretty hard and for relatively long hours. I suspect that the bankers work even longer hours.

As an aside, after the Danes were labeled the happiest people on earth, some Danish sociologists looked at the numbers again and came to the conclusion that it wasn't that the Danes had it better, simply that they had lower expectations.

If you are really just looking to slow it down and "live the European life", I just struggle to think why you would choose Switzerland. It is simply too much effort and expense. France, Italy, or Spain would be much, much better places, to my mind.

I know that you said that your children wanted to learn different languages, but I think you overestimate your ability to do that in Switzerland. Italian, in particular, is a minor language. And learning Swiss German is a hassle, given that the written language is High German, and there are so many different dialects.

Finally, I think you are forgetting about the very grave hair situation in Switzerland. The mullet is exceedingly common here. They are everywhere. It is like living in Canada. Even rat-tails are not uncommon. I'm not sure it is the sort of environment that I could, in good conscience, recommend exposing children too.

swandav2000

michael,

I moved to Germany last fall for many of the reasons you note above: no need for a car; excellent and fun public transport; nosing around small, personal shops; neighborhood markets; daily walks in pretty, historic towns; access to more of Europe; more world-class concerts and performances; and some intangible notion that profit isn't the most important factor in life. I went from a three-bedroom, three-bath condominium to a one-bedroom, one-bath apartment. I'm learning the true sense of recycling (all garbage is separated and disposed of differently) and of conserving energy (I've stopped using my clothes drier entirely).

I must tell you, though, that for the last 20 years I had assumed I would be living in Switzerland. I took an apartment for three months in 2007 to try it out. What I found was that -- I couldn't afford it, even if I could have somehow managed the paperwork and entrance requirements. The only place I could afford was in an area with recent immigrants, and the building was smelly, dank, and dark. The apartment was filthy. So -- I altered my plans and now can visit Switzerland from here at marginal cost -- about 100E for the train trip.

It's much easier for Americans to stay longer in Germany, so I urge you to consider coming here. All you need to do is to prove that you have an income and medical insurance (I am retired military so am covered for both), and then you get a residence visa for one year.

Ok, ok, it's not idyllic Switzerland. More people drive here, and English is not as widely spoken. But we have the Alps and Alpine trails, and Christmas in Garmisch was just tingly-wonderful. So, living in Germany may be your one step closer to your goal. Come here to live and learn and work, and maybe after a few years you'll get a contact or an offer in Switzerland. It's a lot easier to move from Germany to Switzerland than it is from the USA to Switzerland!

I'm a regular poster at Trip Advisor; if you want to send me a private message, you can do it there --

s

5alive

Interesting post. If a visa doesn't work out, what about going for the summer? If your kids want to learn a language, though, homeschooling isn't going to work. Would there be a summer camp or sports camp they could do to get to know some other kids? And I believe there's an International Center for Girl Scouts/Girl Guides in Switzerland called Our Chalet if you have a daughter. Otherwise, I think your kids might be a little lonely with no way to meet others their age.

I still wouldn't discount the possibility of living in England or Ireland for three months. And then if they did a football (er, soccer camp) they could have more in depth conversations with other kids. That might be more meaningful.

nancicita

travelgourmet - great observations about life in switzerland.
Your post was informative, honest, and insightful.


Your comment about the "hair situation" is just hilarious!

KayF

I've only had time to skim through this thread but you might find this website interesting. They are a family of 3 from the USA who are travelling/living in Europe long term.

http://www.soultravelers3.com/soultravelers3.html

Best wishes and don't give up your dreams.
Kay

NorCalif

michael-teter - I understand your motivation completely and think it is a wonderful idea, both for you and your children. I also compliment you on remaining lucid and courteous in your posts, which is evidently WAY beyond a couple of posters on this thread.

My husband and I are currently living in Amsterdam for a year. (He is a professor/virologist on sabbatical doing research here.) His US university is paying his salary, so we (like you would be) are only part of the local economy to the extent that we spend our money here for rent, food, transportation, etc. I like to think that having to put up with our presence in exchange is not too big a burden on the good citizens of the Netherlands.

BTW, I had been to Amsterdam once, for 3 days 30 years ago, before we moved here. My husband had been here once, for 4 days. Geez, if some posters' idea of wild risk is moving to a western European country for a year - one you've actually even seen before, that you can get to in less than a day - it makes me wonder where the human race's pioneering spirit has gone.

My only quibble with your plan is that it sounds like the bureaucracy in Switzerland may be overwhelming. I would join those who suggest that you might consider a different European country. Although who can tell a person what they should love? There are Americans who think Italy is paradise, while others move to Tahiti. So if Switzerland it must be, good luck to you.

But I have to say our experience (9 months so far) in Amsterdam has been everything that you seem to be looking for - with the possible exception of the specific languages. We don't hear much Italian here except from visitors. ;-> Permit me to lobby for the Netherlands - we love it so much. Although I don't know what the residence permit situation would be for you. Frankly the biggest risk you run, in my opinion, is that you would want to move here permanently. I recently spoke to two doctors from California, who came here for a year to write a book and are now planning to immigrate to the Netherlands. I do know self-employed Americans who have moved here permanently, so it can be done even if you're not sponsored by an employer. But of course you would have to look into the requirements for your year-long stay.

And you know, your observations about the differences between the culture you observed in Switzerland and you observed in the US are spot on, in my experience. Not naive at all. And many, many expats I've met over here would agree with you. It's a very common topic of conversation.

I grew up as an Air Force kid and spent my life moving every couple of years. Lived all over the US and in Japan. While there were times the moving was difficult (especially in high school), I am very grateful for the experience of living many different places. Trust me, one year in a foreign country, at your kids' ages, should not be detrimental to them. I belong to an expat organization here in Amsterdam that has about 400 members - the families that belong include many children of all ages. For some this is their first experience abroad, others have lived in Singapore, Dubai, Thailand, Turkey, etc. before being "posted" to Amsterdam. The naive people on this thread are the people who think living abroad for a year is some unbelievable thing to do.

All the best to you and your family. I hope it all works out for you.

Passerine

You can find the lifestyle you want in the U.S. too, you know.

I'm an American living in Switzerland. First, the Swiss are not unmaterialistic. Take a stroll down Zurich's Bahnhofstrasse someday. Second, the Swiss do not take kindly to people trying to work under the table. And visas for independent workers are very difficult to come by--getting my work and residency permit was a piece of cake in comparison. And Switzerland is not cheap. Plus the whole issue of healthcare. Ordinary trip insurance won't cover your plans and Swiss health insurance companies won't enroll you unless you are there legally.

And, also just my opinion, you're not teaching your children an admirable lesson--that it's ok to break the laws and sneak around as long as it suits your purposes.

My impulse is to suggest you move your family to Vermont for a year. Or maybe Bend, Oregon.

The only way I can think this would work is if you yourself get a student visa and enroll in a year-long foreign student program (in France or Germany or maybe Italy). But there are still a lot of obstacles to overcome--proving you already have enough funds to support yourself and your family for the entire year. And your telecommuting would still be illegal although you could probably get away with it.

Alec

The biggest problem for OP in getting a visa is how to convince the authorities that you will be completely financially self-supporting. You need to show, with a bank statement, that there will be enough money coming in every month to pay for all your expenses and upkeep. And the source of income must be non-work related, such as pensions and investment. If you are being paid by your US employer while you are in Switzerland or another country using your PC and internet connection, that counts as work and is not permissible without a specific visa and work permit (the two are combined in Switzerland). There is no way you can get around this, as they will want to know the source of your income, with documentary proof. Such income will be subject to foreign income tax and healthcare/social security deductions (very high in Switzerland), though there may be a double-taxation relief.

quokka

You will also want to check which countries allow homeschooling. Germany, for example, does not.

michael_teter

More very good posts - thanks!

I will consider countries other than Switzerland. Perhaps just having the ability to visit with relative ease (compared to visiting from the US) will satisfy me.

And to clarify, I was not intending to cheat or lie anywhere. I personally don't need the stress of worrying that I'm at risk of having my family ejected from a country!

Thanks again. This has all be very helpful

travelgourmet

<i>I will consider countries other than Switzerland.</i>

I think that a very wise move. I, for one, don't mean to discourage you from trying your hand at living abroad (though it might not seem that way), I just think that the expense and bureaucratic hassles involved in living in Switzerland are simply too onerous to make it my first choice of place to live.

<i>The naive people on this thread are the people who think living abroad for a year is some unbelievable thing to do.</i>

I don't think there is anyone here that thinks it is unbelievable to live abroad. What I think people are trying to point out is that it is exceedingly difficult to simply pack up and move a family to many European countries if your plan is to "telecommute". The profile the OP has presented is not one that will be likely to get him a visa.

And even if you do get the visa, that means you now have to play by the rules, which entails a whole new set of hassles. For example, are you prepared to pay for tax services? I know I would never try to prepare my Swiss or Danish tax return on my own. Indeed, I doubt I could even prepare my US tax return, due to the impact of the rules surrounding foreign earned income.

crefloors

There is a website and blog for a family that has been traveling in Europe for about three years now. She has posted here now and then. The website is soultravelers.3. If you google it comes right up.

I never thought of the issues of what countried they are traveling in and out of and for how long. You might contact her and ask how they do it. I've been following them off and on. I do know they came back to the states a couple of times, so that might be what they had to do.

They have a travel trailor, but at least for the first couple of years they spent several months, during the winter, in Spain. Anyhoo, just a thought.