London to D-Day Beaches--What's the best way to get there?
Jan 22nd, 2006, 09:41 AM
#21
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aremorra, thanks so much for your thoughts. I appreciate your tips. The book you mention sounds like a great guide.
Reading your post got me a little emotional too. Thanks for your input!
Reading your post got me a little emotional too. Thanks for your input!
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:10 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am lucky enough to have toured the D-Day areas.
Rex, I agree that Arromanche is the untold story. The way I see it, the Germans knew that any allied invasion would have to have control of a port for food, gas and other supplies. Knowing this the Germans focused fortification on the ports, like Cherborg. Remember that the allies commando raid at Dieppe was a complete disater.
So the surprise to Germans was that some clever folks were able to turn a small beach town into a port and did that within maybe two days. PLUTO (pipeline under the ocean) helped as well.
Having said the above, I think that it is right that people focus on the human side of things and let the logistics take a back seat.
Rex, I agree that Arromanche is the untold story. The way I see it, the Germans knew that any allied invasion would have to have control of a port for food, gas and other supplies. Knowing this the Germans focused fortification on the ports, like Cherborg. Remember that the allies commando raid at Dieppe was a complete disater.
So the surprise to Germans was that some clever folks were able to turn a small beach town into a port and did that within maybe two days. PLUTO (pipeline under the ocean) helped as well.
Having said the above, I think that it is right that people focus on the human side of things and let the logistics take a back seat.
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:34 PM
#24
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<< the Germans knew that any allied invasion would have to have control of a port for food, gas and other supplies. >>
Somewhere, I heard a quote that Churchill and FDR (together with military leaders no doubt) calculated that the invasion of Normandy would require 200 pounds of "stuff" per soldier per day - - thus the need to have the kind of serious port that Arromanches was able to provide... in the short period before storms took it out.
But I never heard the notion that Bradley would have "called it off" if the naval assault at Omaha had failed (or taken inordinately longer). Interesting (I'm not disputing it)...
It does make clear some (set of) thing(s) that I have only slowly grasped about naval warfare (since I gew up in the "fly-over heartland" and know little about laritime anything... as a kid, I wondered the naive question - - what is the purpose of battleships? are they just for destroying other battleships? and thus, how did they come to ever exist in the first place? When you see one, and hearing about their use at Onaha Beach, you come to understand, that the original (and ultimate) function of a battleship is to take out a harbor, a port, a fort... even an entire city (or at least in some historical context, it must have been).
Anyhow, the "what if" re-imagining of history is an interesting game, isn't it?
On another (admittedly, only vaguely related) note... see "Glory Road" when you get the chance. What if Texas Western had not beaten UK in 1966?
Has anyone read this book? curious if it takes the same timeline liberties as the movie (surely not) - - though the artisitic license doesn't really destract from the important core of the story.
Somewhere, I heard a quote that Churchill and FDR (together with military leaders no doubt) calculated that the invasion of Normandy would require 200 pounds of "stuff" per soldier per day - - thus the need to have the kind of serious port that Arromanches was able to provide... in the short period before storms took it out.
But I never heard the notion that Bradley would have "called it off" if the naval assault at Omaha had failed (or taken inordinately longer). Interesting (I'm not disputing it)...
It does make clear some (set of) thing(s) that I have only slowly grasped about naval warfare (since I gew up in the "fly-over heartland" and know little about laritime anything... as a kid, I wondered the naive question - - what is the purpose of battleships? are they just for destroying other battleships? and thus, how did they come to ever exist in the first place? When you see one, and hearing about their use at Onaha Beach, you come to understand, that the original (and ultimate) function of a battleship is to take out a harbor, a port, a fort... even an entire city (or at least in some historical context, it must have been).
Anyhow, the "what if" re-imagining of history is an interesting game, isn't it?
On another (admittedly, only vaguely related) note... see "Glory Road" when you get the chance. What if Texas Western had not beaten UK in 1966?
Has anyone read this book? curious if it takes the same timeline liberties as the movie (surely not) - - though the artisitic license doesn't really destract from the important core of the story.
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:36 PM
#25
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The situation on Omaha beach was something straight out of a horror movie. The German regiment in this area was reinforced by the 352nd and put up a nearly impenetrable defense. American soldiers were being massacred at the Pointe du Hoc, and Bradley briefly considered evacuating the American troops. Suddenly, Gerow's voice rang out over the radio, "Troops formerly pinned down on beaches... advancing up heights behind the beaches." (8) It seems that it was the U.S. Navy destroyers firing at German strongholds that served as the catalyst for the American advancement."
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/bradley3.html
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/bradley3.html
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:51 PM
#26
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Pointe du Hoc story is indeed moving, and all the more so, to any who visit there - - but it seems unlikely that their numbers (about 200) were crucial in any decisions.
The movie Saving Private Ryan depicts the importance of being able to scale the cliffs as the first step to successfully taking the coast. But the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc were up there in no time (the first made it up in something like 11 minutes).
Problem is, that the Germans drew back and they (the Rangers) were pinned down against the cliffline, without the artillery to advance, nor the reinforcements to protect them from their unique vulnerability. Taking the cliffs resulted in barely a smattering of casualties - - it was the 48 hours after that which resulted in something like 60 ot 70% of their numbers killed or wounded, as I recall.
The movie Saving Private Ryan depicts the importance of being able to scale the cliffs as the first step to successfully taking the coast. But the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc were up there in no time (the first made it up in something like 11 minutes).
Problem is, that the Germans drew back and they (the Rangers) were pinned down against the cliffline, without the artillery to advance, nor the reinforcements to protect them from their unique vulnerability. Taking the cliffs resulted in barely a smattering of casualties - - it was the 48 hours after that which resulted in something like 60 ot 70% of their numbers killed or wounded, as I recall.
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:51 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have seen a quote similar to 200 lbs per day. Paratroopers go in carrying 3 day of survival. After three days they are supposed to be relieved.
I have also seen some numbers where it takes more people to support a front-line force then are in a front-line force.
For me, walking thru the places that I had read about was delightful and moving. I still think about it years later.
My dad arrived in France in late June, two weeks after D-day. Coming off of the ship, he had to walk past the body bags that were lined up for loading on that same ship. He doesn't often talk about those experiences.
I have also seen some numbers where it takes more people to support a front-line force then are in a front-line force.
For me, walking thru the places that I had read about was delightful and moving. I still think about it years later.
My dad arrived in France in late June, two weeks after D-day. Coming off of the ship, he had to walk past the body bags that were lined up for loading on that same ship. He doesn't often talk about those experiences.
Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:52 PM
#28
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going back to the original request: I assume you are planning to return to London after your D-Day visit rather than head out to Paris or the Loire Valley or whatever.
IF that is the case, then I suggest when you get here, you check the Sunday newspaper travel inserts or pop into a travel agency and see if there are any short breaks offered by British touring companies off to that area. In today's paper, there was a big insert on short breaks in France (which has already gone into our recylcing bin for Monday am pickup or I would have checked if any D-Day trips were listed). Not only will you have an "efficient" visit with most of the details taken care of, you will be seeing the beaches with a British guide and a coachload of Brits--might be more interesting that way than doing it on your own.
IF that is the case, then I suggest when you get here, you check the Sunday newspaper travel inserts or pop into a travel agency and see if there are any short breaks offered by British touring companies off to that area. In today's paper, there was a big insert on short breaks in France (which has already gone into our recylcing bin for Monday am pickup or I would have checked if any D-Day trips were listed). Not only will you have an "efficient" visit with most of the details taken care of, you will be seeing the beaches with a British guide and a coachload of Brits--might be more interesting that way than doing it on your own.
