bb

Has anyone taken one of those bus tours through Europe (of one/several countries) with kids? (i.e, American Express, Globus, etc.)<BR><BR>We were considering it with two boys (11, 15) in tow since we'd rather do the exploring and leave the driving to someone else. Did one YEARS ago on our first jaunt through Europe and ended up seeing sights with the tour group in the morning and going off on our own in the afternoons.<BR><BR>Do they allow kids on these tours? <BR>Thanks for your help/advice.<BR>

jenni

You might try one of the companies that tends to have a younger clientele, such as Cosmos. <BR><BR>Of course, your kids are old enough to schlepp their own luggage and have an adventure...why don't you create your own itinerary with some good guide books and a rail pass? Unless you are a nervous traveler, you may find going on your own to be a nicer experience!

Jenny

A couple years ago we were on a med. cruise and there were quite a few children on the ship but I don't remember seeing them on any of the tours but there were no restrictions. I believe you need to ask yourself two questions. Do your boys want to do this? And how well will they function in an adult group for long periods of time day after day. Kids on tours can be great--they often see things that adults don't. <BR>I'm sure there are others out there who can suggest a "tour" company. There are some companies which offer less formal and small group travel--perfect for a family.

jb

bb,<BR><BR>I've been reading up on this and it seems the latest thing is to have tours aimed at keeping a whole family happy - including grand parents, too. You might want to check out Globus, Trafalgar, Tauck - better yet, talk to a travel agent.<BR><BR>jb

xxx

Best bet would be to check with the individual tour company and find out their policies regarding kids on tours. If there is an age restriction, and your kids fall under it, your decision has been made for you. You should be able to find web addresses for the company(ies) you're interested in to check out their age policies.

StCirq

Let's see - mine are ages 12 and 15 and I must tell you I think they would hatchet me to death if I ever suggested such a thing. Especially the 15-year-old. He'll be absolutely miserable. It's enough for them that they have to be on vacation with their beloved parents, never mind other unknown adults, and locked into an itinerary - bummer! But then, every family is different, and I don't know your kids or your tastes in vacations.<BR><BR>That said, there is no reason you couldn't plan a trip by yourselves that would take into account the interests of your kids and yourselves a whole lot better than some tour company could. The world is full of interesting information about things that would please anyone of any age in Europe, and you could cut and paste yourself a nice tailor-made vacation that would guarantee that the 15-year-old didn't die of boredom or the 11-year-old didn't end up being the "yung 'un" on the bus. Plus, you could be a lot more spontaneous - and that has always been the key to successful trips with our kids. It's raining today - forget Versailles, let's hit the Mus&eacute;e de la Magie.<BR><BR>There may be new, hip tour companies that cater to families, but the people I've seen pouring off the buses in Europe in the past 10 years haven't included many, if any, kids.<BR><BR>Are you scared of driving in Europe? If so, be assured that it's not something to be apprehensive about, except perhaps in the UK where driving on "the wrong side" is pretty daunting to most Americans.<BR><BR>I'd forget the tour bus idea and get everyone in the family involved in planning a vacation that will suit all of your interests. Give the kids maps and guidebooks and let them select places they want to see. Involvement in the planning - which is impossible when going on a tour - makes a huge difference in the happiness of the kids on vacation.

Ben Haines

I agree with the general tone: even if a tour company allows children, or even says it welcomes children, the four of you are tied into lockstep with all those others. There is no spontaneity: if it rains for your Versailles afternoon then hard luck: you take umbrellas.<BR><BR>I agree with St Cirq. For a tour of heartland Europe, say southern England, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, or parts thereof, it might be best to drive a hire car. But even those distances are boring, and plenty of families who consult me on and off Fodors want to go right out to Madrid, Edinburgh, and Berlin. Those families have designed themselves railway tours, with plenty of journeys of 500 miles asleep in bed in a sleeper. When I say designed, some have ticked off a list of famous places, must sees, places where all the tourists go because that is where all the tourists go. Well and good. But have the boys tastes of their own ? jungle trees, huge engineering works, boat trips, Van Gogh, Roots music, Mozart, riding, Adolf Hitler, Chile con Carne ? If so, please tell us all, and how long you have, and we can cook up a week or two that they will have chosen, and that will take you to places your neighbours have never heard of. More, have they favourite teachers, who will let on what they plan to teach next semester ? I mean, if they have the solar system or the industrial revolution next year we can speed them towards Greenwich, Joddrell Bank, or Ironbridge ? and that?s England only.<BR><BR>If that is possible for you, would the fifteen year old or you please write to tell us the boys? tastes and the teachers? ideas ?<BR><BR>Welcome back.<BR><BR>Ben Haines, London<BR><BR>

jen

I wouldn't subject my kids to these aspects of group tours: waiting, following, passively listening. I also wouldn't want them to disturb adults on the tour, which could easily happen as there are plenty of anti-juvenile grownups out there (just check out the threads on kids in airplanes!!!). And I heartily agree with the other posters that a trip you design yourselves, with major input from your boys, is infinitely more exciting. Get them on the web: Lonely Planet's Thorn tree, Virtual Tourist (generally a younger clientele and on-line chat with travellers), budgettravel.com (fantastic links), etc. <BR><BR>You can always join a tour or hire a private guide to get an in-depth explanation of special sights: ancient Rome, Versailles, Checkpoint Charlie, the Tower of London. Better to combine that with the freedom to let your kids make some of the important decisions.

Liz

I second Ben's idea of Rail travel. I think it's perfect with kids your ages, because they don't have to "be" with you constantly, which all of you will appreciate.

Monica

I agree, take the train! We did that for four weeks in Italy and it was perfect. We'd just show up at the train station at the designated time and get whisked to our destination with no hassles. Taxi at the other end to get the luggage to the hotel. So easy. And while you're on the train you can wander around, watch the countryside, eat, etc.

Gretchen

Also agree with the general tone of not doing it--long times on a bus, no spontaneity, etc. We took our 3 to Europe for 3 weeks, youngest being 13. We drove some, took the train some. It was pretty terrific.

patg

Another vote for the train. Many boys just love them. You travel to and from the central cities and can have a great deal of freedom without driving.<BR><BR>I have traveled a fair amount in Europe with my kids, and they prefer making a place home base for 3-5 days and striking out from there. Being always on the move is very taxing on everyone, but getting to know a place gives kids a sense of belonging. They will not appreciate the sightseeing as adults do; they need to find something of their own to relate to.<BR><BR>Another successful strategy is to have each boy be a planner for at least part of the trip. He can help narrow down the sightseeing goals, pick a hotel, and help with the train schedule. This gives them a kind of ownership of that part of the trip, and an understanding of how hard travel planning can be. Cuts down on the post-trip whining of, "Why didn't we get to ....."

Greg

To answer the original question: YES, most tour companies will take kids 8 years or older.<BR>This is an independent traveller site so your inquiry leaves a bad taste with the rest of us. However, I can understand how some people prefer a no brainer grouptour. <BR>I have a sister whose life is so busy that she doesn't have time to research & plan her trips. I talked them into going independent & help with the arrangements. They ended up getting all stressed out even though she's fluent in German & Dutch. They complain of carrying their suitcases in the trainstations & having to figure out what to see with no guide to tell the history. Nowadays they travel with their son every year enduring bad tour hotels & they love it. To their credit, they have been to a lot more exotic places (in far eastern european countries) than I will ever have. They like small minivan tour companies that will do flexible custom tours.

Rita

I took my son on several bus tours in the US when he was 12 through 16. He loved it. He met the most interesting people. The other tour members fussed over him and gave him treats. He was well behaved which made a difference. He was interested and impressed with all the sights. We traveled with Globus and Tauck. He is now 26 and still talks about our trips together. Rita

uhoh

I'd go to Italy and drive. There's mountains, lakes, castles, extraordinary food, friendly people. It really is easy. Plan to end in Rome by which time you'll feel quite "Italian" (and you won't need the car). Buy the best Michelin series maps you can find, and let the guys learn how to read maps and help navigate. They'll NEVER forget it.

bb

Thank you all for your input. <BR>Years ago we (adults before kids) took a Globus tour through Europe, which was fine at the time because we wanted an introduction to a city and then we would leave for the afternoon and explore on our own. I had city maps of all the major cities we toured and information on the local sites and transportation so even though our Globus tour director discouraged the exploration on our own, we did it anyway and enjoyed ourselves. At the time our reason for the tour was that it gave us a morning in a city with entry to local sites complete with historical information, and most afternoons free to explore elsewhere, which is what we did. Also, we calculated the driving distances, cost of car rental and gas, cost of hotels and food, and were concerned about communicating languages that were foreign to us. At the time, with the exchange rate, we thought the Globus tour was a better deal, and we wouldn’t have to do the driving.<BR>A few years ago we took two weeks and drove through parts of Canada (from Montreal to Ottawa and then to Toronto). The boys looked through guidebooks and chose sites they wanted to visit. For the most part, we were able to visit things that each of us enjoyed viewing, even though some were “boring” because the adults preferred a museum for the day instead of seeing a baseball game, for example. My sons like sports, however, they also enjoy visiting science museums, especially the hands on kind. <BR>Another vacation, we took a driving tour up the California coast from San Diego to San Francisco, and they also picked sites along the way. We always try to include something educational on any vacation, so we stopped at historical sites in California, but also visited Disney and Universal Studios, stopped at Hearst Castle and the sea lion rookery, the Monterey Aquarium, walked all around San Francisco, took a winery tour, and visited the Muir Woods. We went inland to Sacramento and visited an historical fort there that they initially thought would be boring but ended up thoroughly enjoying it, especially since there were historical interpreters dressed in the costume of the day, which brought the past to life for them.<BR>During one February school vacation break, we visited London on our own and used public transportation. Again, I put together an itinerary with everyone’s input which included sites like: the Museum of Science in London, the Natural History Museum, the British Museum, the Tower of London, the Millennium Dome. Then we rented a car and visited Windsor Castle, Warwick Castle and drove down to Bath. This was all done while I had a broken ankle (broken two days before our departure).<BR>Last summer we took three weeks in the Pacific Northwest from Portland, OR to Seattle, WA to Vancouver, BC. Then we boarded a cruise ship to Alaska and in Anchorage, picked up an RV and toured inland to Denali and Fairbanks.<BR>So as you can see, we are adventurous in terms of wanting to see a lot when we get to a place. We usually spend one or two days in a place before moving on, and try to see many highlights while we are there. We figure if we like it enough, we’ll come back again. Driving has been OK, but sometimes you just want to sit back and let someone else do the driving too. That’s why we considered a tour in Europe. The boys have done some traveling and are usually polite in public. <BR>I don’t know much about traveling by train in Europe. I have heard that the trains are great for schedules, etc. but what about carrying all the luggage when you arrive? While we are adventurous in terms of visiting places on vacation, I don’t want to carry backpacks around Europe! <BR>

g

BB,<BR><BR>I lived in Germany my sophomore and junior years in high school. We went on several tours arranged through the military base (but with local guides, etc. - basically set up as any tour would be). My mother and I went on many of them together and we both had a great time. Many of our fellow travelers were older (usually retired military) and is was fun to strike up conversations with everyone and get their perspective on the places in which we were traveling.<BR>That said, it really would depend on your boys and what all you want to accomplish. I definitely think the train would be "do-able." You could travel from city to city as suggested - if you pack fairly lightly, luggage will not be that much of a factor. You don't necessarily have to have backpacks - just luggage each of you can handle yourselves, including lifting onto racks above, pulling or carrying to the hotel, etc. You could also stay in one or two "base cities" and take several day trips on the train - that way most of your luggage would stay in the hotel and you would just have a light day bag to hold your maps, snacks or picnic items, camera, journal, etc.<BR>Definitely get the boys' opinions and let them do some of the planning and decision making, no matter what decision you make. You might order brochures from a few of the tour companies and look at their itineraries. Do they seem practical? Will you see as much as you want to see? Could you possibly duplicate the itinerary or most of the itinerary on your own through train travel or driving yourself (supplemented by day trips via train or motor coach - possibly a few guided tours)?<BR>Hope everything turns out well.

Ben Haines

Message: Thank you all for your input. <BR>I must say, you sound well able to plan and make decisions for yourselves. For what it is worth, there is a hands-on science museum in Paris. My notes say<BR>Canal ride up to LaVillette. La Cite des Sciences et de l'Industrie, otherwise known as La Villette, is a museum complex with different offerings for various ages. There is a Techno Cite for the older children, as well as a planetarium and a real submarine to walk around in, the Argonaute. This submarine was built in Toulon in 1982, decomnmissioned in 1982, and is now open to view. Next to La Geode. Phone 01 40 05 72 23, or for recorded information 01 36 68 29 30.<BR>http://www.cite-sciences.fr/francais/indexFLASH.fs.htm/. Also http://www.parisian-hotels.net/paris-children.htm/, and http://www.lageode.fr/. (tel. 01 40 05 80 00, or 01 36 68 29 30). <BR><BR>There is another such museum in Berlin. In both, labels are not in English.<BR><BR>It is easy to cope with luggage during train travel. Most big stations in Europe have luggage trolleys, and in Germany have lifts, so you can wheel bags from the front of the station to the train, and back. Between the front of the station and your hotel one of you and all the luggage can take a taxi, while the rest take a tram or metro. But often you can dump most bags in left luggage, or left luggage lockers. The technique here is to sort out, in your train compartment, washing things, passports and suitable money and credit cards, plus enough shirts, underwear and reading matter to last three days, and pack them in one or two bags, for the more muscular amongst you to take by tram or metro to your hotel, while the rest of the bags sit in left luggage. For travel on these lines a suitcase with wheels on the corners goes better than a backpack, as the luggage spaces in trains, left luggage lockers and left luggage offices are rectangular. <BR><BR>At some point you all have deep need of a laundrette ? you?ll know that point when people move to a restaurant table away from you !<BR><BR>Please write if I can help further.<BR><BR>Ben Haines<BR>