Kids First Trip to Europe -input on itinerary, lodging and things to do
Dec 5th, 2008, 04:58 AM
#21
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I guess you've gotten most of the input that says you are doing too much.Here are some tips that might help you re-work your plan - background on us-many trips over the years with our kids who are now 21 & 19:
Go to www.viamichelin.com - this website allows you to plug in cities and get an estimate of driving times. This will allow you to see just how unrealistic much of your plan really is. You can play around with start and finish destinations and then try various stopover scenarios along the way.
Recognize that travelling with 4 people is MORE than double the trouble of traveling with 2. What I mean is that it can be fairly easy to travel with one other like-minded individual, but with an additional 2 (teens or not) everything becomes a little more complicated. It will take you much longer to get up & get going in the morning. Thus the need to cut down on as many 1 night stays as possible.
You are traveling during the summer so I HIGHLY recommend that you book each accomodation for each night now. Do not be tempted to "go with the flow" - if you are trying to go cheaply you will find it more difficult to find a Quad Room at the last minute. You will end up with 2 rooms at a substantial increase. And walking around with 4 people in tow as you look at various room options is NOT fun - IMO it far outweighs the advantages of being flexible. When you are looking at places to stay, email them and ask what they would have that would work for your family. I have gotten responses that include "family apartments" that were not listed on the website. Book 2 rooms at the smaller and less expensive B&B's - 3 weeks with all four together all the time can be tense.
Traveling with teens can be great - I'm sure you have done lots with them already and you know what kind of travelers they are, but there are some things you need to take into consideration for your Europe Trip:
First, they will probably want to sleep in. You need to alternate days when you all MUST get out early with days where they get a little break - i.e. all the travel days need an early start (again, cut down on these as much as possible). Some big sights are well worth the effort to get up early and see them before the crowds hit. But on the other days, let them sleep in while you two go out and explore a bit.
You are smart to look for outdoor activities to alternate with the city/museum thing. My kids LOVE museums and historical sights but we all do much better with some fun, active, even silly things - rent bikes, race each other on the luge, SWIM, hike. And BTW, our time at Madame Tussauds was a highlight of our England trip - very fun and silly!
Allow them time to explore on their own. 12 & 14 will be old enough to go down the street to get gelato without you or to go to the shops while you have a drink at a cafe. After getting up early and sightseeing, be sure to build in time to come back to your hotel for rest, reading, music, etc.
Do not underestimate the importance of food - 3 regular meals (if they eat breakfast) + snacks in between are a must. They really won't be able to handle skipping meals as well as you and your husband. Slowing down your trip will let you not resent the time you need to take to refuel. Consider also allowing them to drink beer/wine where appropriate.
There are a few really good posters here with detailed itineraries (bobthenavigator is my personal favorite!) and trip reports. Look at these & combine them with the simplistic layout of the Rick Steves books and you should get a much better Europe plan. Looking at your desired locations my teens personal favorites were Venice, Tuscany, Salzburg & surrounding mountains/lakes, Prague. We've never been to Cinque Terra and while I agree that it might suit you for the hiking, out of doors feel, I get the sense that it is mobbed in the summer. I'd leave it off. And we didn't enjoy Florence as much as others have, for probably the same reason - VERY crowded in the summer and so much smaller than Rome that it seemed to handle the crowds less well. We loved Rome, but were so-so about Florence on the same trip.
Finally - good for you for taking your kids. I am SO sorry that this time is mostly finished for us. Traveling with our kids/teens has been great but its very difficult now with university & work schedules. Have a great time!
Go to www.viamichelin.com - this website allows you to plug in cities and get an estimate of driving times. This will allow you to see just how unrealistic much of your plan really is. You can play around with start and finish destinations and then try various stopover scenarios along the way.
Recognize that travelling with 4 people is MORE than double the trouble of traveling with 2. What I mean is that it can be fairly easy to travel with one other like-minded individual, but with an additional 2 (teens or not) everything becomes a little more complicated. It will take you much longer to get up & get going in the morning. Thus the need to cut down on as many 1 night stays as possible.
You are traveling during the summer so I HIGHLY recommend that you book each accomodation for each night now. Do not be tempted to "go with the flow" - if you are trying to go cheaply you will find it more difficult to find a Quad Room at the last minute. You will end up with 2 rooms at a substantial increase. And walking around with 4 people in tow as you look at various room options is NOT fun - IMO it far outweighs the advantages of being flexible. When you are looking at places to stay, email them and ask what they would have that would work for your family. I have gotten responses that include "family apartments" that were not listed on the website. Book 2 rooms at the smaller and less expensive B&B's - 3 weeks with all four together all the time can be tense.
Traveling with teens can be great - I'm sure you have done lots with them already and you know what kind of travelers they are, but there are some things you need to take into consideration for your Europe Trip:
First, they will probably want to sleep in. You need to alternate days when you all MUST get out early with days where they get a little break - i.e. all the travel days need an early start (again, cut down on these as much as possible). Some big sights are well worth the effort to get up early and see them before the crowds hit. But on the other days, let them sleep in while you two go out and explore a bit.
You are smart to look for outdoor activities to alternate with the city/museum thing. My kids LOVE museums and historical sights but we all do much better with some fun, active, even silly things - rent bikes, race each other on the luge, SWIM, hike. And BTW, our time at Madame Tussauds was a highlight of our England trip - very fun and silly!
Allow them time to explore on their own. 12 & 14 will be old enough to go down the street to get gelato without you or to go to the shops while you have a drink at a cafe. After getting up early and sightseeing, be sure to build in time to come back to your hotel for rest, reading, music, etc.
Do not underestimate the importance of food - 3 regular meals (if they eat breakfast) + snacks in between are a must. They really won't be able to handle skipping meals as well as you and your husband. Slowing down your trip will let you not resent the time you need to take to refuel. Consider also allowing them to drink beer/wine where appropriate.
There are a few really good posters here with detailed itineraries (bobthenavigator is my personal favorite!) and trip reports. Look at these & combine them with the simplistic layout of the Rick Steves books and you should get a much better Europe plan. Looking at your desired locations my teens personal favorites were Venice, Tuscany, Salzburg & surrounding mountains/lakes, Prague. We've never been to Cinque Terra and while I agree that it might suit you for the hiking, out of doors feel, I get the sense that it is mobbed in the summer. I'd leave it off. And we didn't enjoy Florence as much as others have, for probably the same reason - VERY crowded in the summer and so much smaller than Rome that it seemed to handle the crowds less well. We loved Rome, but were so-so about Florence on the same trip.
Finally - good for you for taking your kids. I am SO sorry that this time is mostly finished for us. Traveling with our kids/teens has been great but its very difficult now with university & work schedules. Have a great time!
Dec 5th, 2008, 08:09 AM
#22
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Hi Hamburger,
The thing that will keep costs down is staying a week at a time in one place. That enables you to rent an apartment for much less than hotels and for your kids to get to know a place and bring back great memories.
Perhaps 1 week in Paris, 1 week in Tuscany or Umbria, and a week somewhere in Germany or Czech. If you rent an apartment in Tuscany or Umbria and have a rental car, you can do amazing day trips and return to your home base to relax.
I traveled w/ my family extensively in Europe as a teenager, but usually crazy car trips running from sight to sight. I don't remember that well. But a couple of times we rented places and stayed a week and I remember those times perfectly. It was so fun feeling like you can settle in and know a place! I remember the markets and riding rental bikes around and getting to know the ice cream vendor. Things like that make a trip fantastic for kids.
My DH and I have taken our kids to Europe 4 times now and we always rent apartments or cottages. When my younger child reminisces about our trips it's always things like walking to the market, or the dog that showed up at the back door every morning looking for bacon. Special memories!
You'll be glad you slowed down and stayed awhile at each place. You'll spend less and have a much better experience.
For 4 people the airfare cost also makes a big difference. Play around with multi-city trips to see what costs less: fly in to Paris, out of Munich for example. If you'll be renting a car there are big differences in costs depending on where you get it, so factor that in as well.
Good luck and let us know how your planning is coming along!
The thing that will keep costs down is staying a week at a time in one place. That enables you to rent an apartment for much less than hotels and for your kids to get to know a place and bring back great memories.
Perhaps 1 week in Paris, 1 week in Tuscany or Umbria, and a week somewhere in Germany or Czech. If you rent an apartment in Tuscany or Umbria and have a rental car, you can do amazing day trips and return to your home base to relax.
I traveled w/ my family extensively in Europe as a teenager, but usually crazy car trips running from sight to sight. I don't remember that well. But a couple of times we rented places and stayed a week and I remember those times perfectly. It was so fun feeling like you can settle in and know a place! I remember the markets and riding rental bikes around and getting to know the ice cream vendor. Things like that make a trip fantastic for kids.
My DH and I have taken our kids to Europe 4 times now and we always rent apartments or cottages. When my younger child reminisces about our trips it's always things like walking to the market, or the dog that showed up at the back door every morning looking for bacon. Special memories!
You'll be glad you slowed down and stayed awhile at each place. You'll spend less and have a much better experience.
For 4 people the airfare cost also makes a big difference. Play around with multi-city trips to see what costs less: fly in to Paris, out of Munich for example. If you'll be renting a car there are big differences in costs depending on where you get it, so factor that in as well.
Good luck and let us know how your planning is coming along!
Dec 5th, 2008, 08:11 AM
#23
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I cannot emphasize strongly enough how outstanding is the advice AtlTravlr gave you. Had I thought to write a post of that sort, I could have written every word she said (even the "if they eat breakfast" part - I have one that does, and one that does not, and well, maybe I don't agree about the wine/beer, especially the 12-year old, but that's one little thing out of many 
). Especially about the downtime and sleeping in. My kids and husband all like to sleep in. I'd rather get up and have a cup of coffee and read the paper. So that's what we do. While they're still sleeping, I go out to the nearest bakery/cafe, and return an hour later. I love it, they love it, we're all happy. Although we KNOW we are not the type to be standing in line at the Tower of London at 8 a.m., we also know we'll stay out until very late and our days will be very full regardless of when we get "moving".
Oh, on the breakfast thing -- if you do not all eat breakfast regularly, I recommend you get some cereal, spoons and milk and keep them with you -- that way, the ones who do eat breakfast can eat in the hotel or apartment while the others are getting ready, and you don't have to take a lot of time for that meal. We do that everywhere, because my daughter is the only one in the family who MUST eat breakfast. If you don't want to "bring in", then plan to stop at a bakery for a croissant and juice. Of course, if breakfast is a big meal for all of you, then just ignore this advice
). Especially about the downtime and sleeping in. My kids and husband all like to sleep in. I'd rather get up and have a cup of coffee and read the paper. So that's what we do. While they're still sleeping, I go out to the nearest bakery/cafe, and return an hour later. I love it, they love it, we're all happy. Although we KNOW we are not the type to be standing in line at the Tower of London at 8 a.m., we also know we'll stay out until very late and our days will be very full regardless of when we get "moving". Oh, on the breakfast thing -- if you do not all eat breakfast regularly, I recommend you get some cereal, spoons and milk and keep them with you -- that way, the ones who do eat breakfast can eat in the hotel or apartment while the others are getting ready, and you don't have to take a lot of time for that meal. We do that everywhere, because my daughter is the only one in the family who MUST eat breakfast. If you don't want to "bring in", then plan to stop at a bakery for a croissant and juice. Of course, if breakfast is a big meal for all of you, then just ignore this advice
Dec 5th, 2008, 08:56 AM
#24
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Oh, and just to clarify about the beer/wine thing - what I really mean is allow them to "try" it where appropriate - my kids loved having a sip at the Tuscan winery that we visited. I didn't really mean to imply that a 12 or 14 year old should be truly drinking.
Dec 5th, 2008, 09:23 AM
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hamburger,
How great you get to take your girls to Europe for three weeks! What a treat.
We were able to bring our two girls the summer of 07 for about 19 days or so, it was fabulous. Traveling to other countries teaches your children so much about life, love, and everything inbetween!
Now, onto your itineary -
How do you say "Scary"?
Said in kindness...
We spent 3 nights in Paris (turned into two due to travel delays) 3 nights in Switzerland, 4 nights in Florence and 4 nights in Rome and THAT was too much moving. We were DEAD tired by the time we were in Rome and I just wanted to come home as much as I loved it.
S-L-O-W down. I know first hand how hard it is to do that when planning, you are super excited and want to get it all in! I would not do anything less then 3 night stays anyplace.
We are going back to Europe on December 22 and are spending 10 nights in an apartment in Paris - based on our last experience. No one wants to move as much as we did last time.
With 3 weeks I would do a week apartment rental in 3 different areas and take day trips as you desire from those places...
Best,
Dawn
How great you get to take your girls to Europe for three weeks! What a treat.
We were able to bring our two girls the summer of 07 for about 19 days or so, it was fabulous. Traveling to other countries teaches your children so much about life, love, and everything inbetween!
Now, onto your itineary -
How do you say "Scary"?
Said in kindness...
We spent 3 nights in Paris (turned into two due to travel delays) 3 nights in Switzerland, 4 nights in Florence and 4 nights in Rome and THAT was too much moving. We were DEAD tired by the time we were in Rome and I just wanted to come home as much as I loved it.
S-L-O-W down. I know first hand how hard it is to do that when planning, you are super excited and want to get it all in! I would not do anything less then 3 night stays anyplace.
We are going back to Europe on December 22 and are spending 10 nights in an apartment in Paris - based on our last experience. No one wants to move as much as we did last time.
With 3 weeks I would do a week apartment rental in 3 different areas and take day trips as you desire from those places...
Best,
Dawn
Dec 6th, 2008, 04:33 PM
#26
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Thank you so much everyone for noting our complete insanity!
Here is a revised rough itinerary (we are flying into Berlin and out of Paris (have tix already):
Arrive Berlin - stay 4 nights, then train to
Prague - 4 nights, then train to
Small Alpine town in Alps -- 4 days, then train to
Cinque Terre -- 4 days then fly from Genoa to
Paris -- stay 5 days then fly home
We may juggle the days a little, e.g. may spend one more day in Prague and one less day in Berlin.
Going point to point by train probably makes sense for most of the trip instead of driving, give all the border crossings and the long distances. And while the Genoa-Paris flight might not be cost effective, may be the best use of our time.
We are looking for suggestions for the Alps -- ideally we'd like to stay in a very "typical" alpine village far from the crowds where we can do brief day hikes and relax & just enjoy the beauty.
I know Cinque Terre will be crowded, but it is so picturesque being right on the sea and the hikes from town to town are the right distance for our kids (who are in shape but love to whine when it comes to family hikes and it is one of my favorite places -- I've been going there since 1980.
Surf mom, we are probably the most like Rick Steves now -- but we were Fodors on our honeymoon and Lonely Planet as single back-packers years ago (my husband and I are turning 50 next year, the excuse for the trip.
For Paris, I think we definitely want to stay in the city, but not sure about Berlin & Prague -- feedback on that appreciated.
Again, thank you for your invaluable feedback, everyone.
jes
Here is a revised rough itinerary (we are flying into Berlin and out of Paris (have tix already):
Arrive Berlin - stay 4 nights, then train to
Prague - 4 nights, then train to
Small Alpine town in Alps -- 4 days, then train to
Cinque Terre -- 4 days then fly from Genoa to
Paris -- stay 5 days then fly home
We may juggle the days a little, e.g. may spend one more day in Prague and one less day in Berlin.
Going point to point by train probably makes sense for most of the trip instead of driving, give all the border crossings and the long distances. And while the Genoa-Paris flight might not be cost effective, may be the best use of our time.
We are looking for suggestions for the Alps -- ideally we'd like to stay in a very "typical" alpine village far from the crowds where we can do brief day hikes and relax & just enjoy the beauty.
I know Cinque Terre will be crowded, but it is so picturesque being right on the sea and the hikes from town to town are the right distance for our kids (who are in shape but love to whine when it comes to family hikes
and it is one of my favorite places -- I've been going there since 1980.Surf mom, we are probably the most like Rick Steves now -- but we were Fodors on our honeymoon and Lonely Planet as single back-packers years ago (my husband and I are turning 50 next year, the excuse for the trip
.For Paris, I think we definitely want to stay in the city, but not sure about Berlin & Prague -- feedback on that appreciated
.Again, thank you for your invaluable feedback, everyone.
jes
Dec 6th, 2008, 05:38 PM
#27
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Wow, that's a much better itinerary!
Atltravelr was spot on about feeding kids on vacation. Ours eat more than usual and get irritable if meals are late let alone missed!
I recommend an apartment for you time in Paris rather than a hotel. It'll give you more space than 2 hotel rooms and after that length of time together you'll appreciate it.
Atltravelr was spot on about feeding kids on vacation. Ours eat more than usual and get irritable if meals are late let alone missed!
I recommend an apartment for you time in Paris rather than a hotel. It'll give you more space than 2 hotel rooms and after that length of time together you'll appreciate it.
Dec 6th, 2008, 06:06 PM
#28
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..slow down even more. Try to get an open jaw. I would stay one week in the city I landed in and do day trips. Then rent a car (or take public transit do the aritmetic) to some place in the country and again do day trips. Drive to city number 3 (or take public transit if you have rented the car for the second country week stay) and then again do day trips. I suggest a week as many apts are rented in high season for a week at a time only. If you decide on non apts/homes/gites ect for the country you could devide 4 and 4 days...
Dec 6th, 2008, 06:31 PM
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Not sure if this is what you mean by "small Alpine town", but we stayed 2 nights in St. Gilgen on the Wolfgangsee - small lake near Salzburg. We were able to go into Salzburg for the day - do your girls like Sound of Music? My daughter & I spent the day running around taking pictures of us at places where the movie was filmed - even got a picture of her "entering the convent"! Lots of fun.
It was also near Halstatt where we did the salt mine tour - very cheesy but again, lots of fun. And this is where we did the luge as well. My kids only regret was that we did not stay longer (so I think 4 nights would be great) - they wished we could have done some hiking there as well.
We did stay in the old city for our nights in Prague - the Hotel Maximillian is much more elaborate than the places we usually stay but friends of mine had been there just before we left and said it was HOT, so we cancelled the cute B&B and went for A/C - kids didn't need it, but husband & I didn't mind paying extra to be able to have closed windows (keep out the city noise) but still keep cool enough to sleep.
Your new trip sounds great!
It was also near Halstatt where we did the salt mine tour - very cheesy but again, lots of fun. And this is where we did the luge as well. My kids only regret was that we did not stay longer (so I think 4 nights would be great) - they wished we could have done some hiking there as well.
We did stay in the old city for our nights in Prague - the Hotel Maximillian is much more elaborate than the places we usually stay but friends of mine had been there just before we left and said it was HOT, so we cancelled the cute B&B and went for A/C - kids didn't need it, but husband & I didn't mind paying extra to be able to have closed windows (keep out the city noise) but still keep cool enough to sleep.
Your new trip sounds great!
Dec 6th, 2008, 09:22 PM
#30
travelbunny: "<i>Try to get an open jaw. </i>" They are flying open jaw - Into Berlin and out of Paris . . . .
hamburger: Much better - a quick study IMO though it still needs a bit of tweaking. You are dashing to five widely separated areas across 1/2 of Europe. Some of those are long journeys.
Maybe cut out one more destination so you can stay a week In a Paris apartment and add a day or two to one of the other cities.
hamburger: Much better - a quick study
IMO though it still needs a bit of tweaking. You are dashing to five widely separated areas across 1/2 of Europe. Some of those are long journeys.Maybe cut out one more destination so you can stay a week In a Paris apartment and add a day or two to one of the other cities.
Dec 6th, 2008, 09:39 PM
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I LOVE your new itinerary! I actually don't think you need to cut anything. Isn't the longest trip you've got between cities about 4 hours - from Berlin to Prague (I guess it might be longer from Prague to the "little alpine village, since we don't yet know where that will be)? That's no problem - the train is fun and easy and relaxing, and you'll still have a good amount of time in each place.
Dec 6th, 2008, 09:48 PM
#32
my point was that some places require a week's rental for a flat. For a family of 4 a flat is usually a good option. So 4 days 4 days 4 days . . . Just makes things harder. Also 4 nights somewhere, does not net 4 days for sightseeing
Dec 7th, 2008, 06:20 AM
#34
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That's a great improvement. Glad you took all the criticism in good spirit.
Now the problem is getting between those stops. Look at www.bahn.de for train times. The July schedule will not be available yet, so look at nearer dates, just to get an idea. Maybe consult with train experts at www.budgeteuropetravel.com.
travelbunny, hamburger says they already have the tix (tickets).
Now the problem is getting between those stops. Look at www.bahn.de for train times. The July schedule will not be available yet, so look at nearer dates, just to get an idea. Maybe consult with train experts at www.budgeteuropetravel.com.
travelbunny, hamburger says they already have the tix (tickets).
Dec 7th, 2008, 07:09 AM
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I like your new itenerey. It combines city sight seeing with small town breaks. I would try to rent a centrally located apartment in each location. The convience of having the extra room, a kitchen, and being able to easily stop by to use the bathroom or rest durng the day worth the extra expense, if any. We have had good luck with VRBO.com all over the world. Finding rentals for less than a week is not a problem.
Of the places in your new itenery I can reccomend arcadiaoldtown.com for Prague. As for a Swiss alps town there is a great, less touresty, town not far from Interlaken that's name escapes me now but I am sure some Swiss expert will chime in on. When, or if, this senior moment passes and I come up with the name I will repost.
Have a wonderful time creating memories with your kids!
Of the places in your new itenery I can reccomend arcadiaoldtown.com for Prague. As for a Swiss alps town there is a great, less touresty, town not far from Interlaken that's name escapes me now but I am sure some Swiss expert will chime in on. When, or if, this senior moment passes and I come up with the name I will repost.
Have a wonderful time creating memories with your kids!
Dec 7th, 2008, 07:24 AM
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Our friends and their children stayed in Gimmelwald, a village in the Alps, and loved it. The postcard photos were amazing. There is a train station there, I believe, since that's how they got around.
Your trip sounds wonderful.
Your trip sounds wonderful.
Dec 7th, 2008, 07:30 AM
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Though now that I look into Gimmelwald, it appears to be not so easy to get to: http://www.gimmelwald.com/getthere.html
Seems to involve train, bus and gondola. Or 1.5 hr hike up a 500 meter elevation. Our friends were there for at least a few days on a lengthy tour.
Seems to involve train, bus and gondola. Or 1.5 hr hike up a 500 meter elevation. Our friends were there for at least a few days on a lengthy tour.
Dec 7th, 2008, 08:24 AM
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hit send too fast. I really do recommend the one week in three different places as well - having done the 3 and 4 nights - for a little over 2 weeks - as I shared we were VERY tired in Rome and one of the days we went to the Hotel De Russie (I am sure I am getting the name wrong) and had spa treatments and the girls swam in the pool and we did NOTHING...
I also recommend apartments if staying more then 4 nights - many apartments as have been pointed out want 7 nights but some will rent for 4 plus nights.
We stayed in a hotel in Paris and Montruex (which we loved btw) both were pricey and then in apartments in Florence and Rome.
It might not be a big deal to you - but the other thing - the apartment in Rome was about five or six flights up with no elevator - nice to be on the top floor BUT man I dreaded those stairs at times...
I also recommend apartments if staying more then 4 nights - many apartments as have been pointed out want 7 nights but some will rent for 4 plus nights.
We stayed in a hotel in Paris and Montruex (which we loved btw) both were pricey and then in apartments in Florence and Rome.
It might not be a big deal to you - but the other thing - the apartment in Rome was about five or six flights up with no elevator - nice to be on the top floor BUT man I dreaded those stairs at times...
Dec 9th, 2008, 09:13 AM
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Thanks everyone. I know we should cut out another location -- it's just so hard! Cinque Terre may have to go as this is way out of the way . . . that said, thanks barblab for the apt. suggestion in Prague -- I think we definitely want to look at apts at every location, as, yes, we are a breakfast eating family, and, my kids often like the bowl of cereal before they go to bed if they haven't eaten enough dinner.
Any suggestions for specific areas to stay in in Paris, Berlin and Prague appreciated, plus any apts. that you might suggest in these areas, as we will not cut these areas from our itinerary.
Meanwhile, back to whittling down the number of locations we are visiting . . .
Any suggestions for specific areas to stay in in Paris, Berlin and Prague appreciated, plus any apts. that you might suggest in these areas, as we will not cut these areas from our itinerary.
Meanwhile, back to whittling down the number of locations we are visiting . . .
