andrew

Oh Linda, for God's sake, grow up! I've been to Switzerland every year for the last 5 years and people have been pretty darned friendly to me when I am to them. Sometimes you run into a jerk, but that happens everywhere. To write off one of the most spectacular countries in the world because of your TERRIBLE experiences is just stupid and shortsighted.

Sue

Linda, that was truly outrageous. I am so sorry to hear about your experience, particularly since an elderly person was involved, and because you and others were not in the best of health. <BR><BR>In my initial post, I suggested that money was more likely at the bottom of it than politics, and I still think this was most likely the case. However, there are two possibilities: 1) it concerned 'legitimate' money that you owed but for some reason the first driver did not explain about or collect, or 2) illegitimate money (i.e. a bribe) that the last driver hoped to bully you into paying because you were foreigners and vulnerable. Given your hotel's reaction, it does seem as if option 2 was more likely. Either way, the conduct of the bus driver was inexcuseable. <BR><BR>I'm still betting that the taxi driver decided he couldn't be bothered with your fare but lashed out at you so as to convince himself that he was some kind of folk hero instead of an extortionist with a car for hire. Bullies, as you know, are not rational. However, that of course didn't make it any the less unpleasant for you, and I am truly sorry you had to go through such a thing. <BR><BR><BR>

why?

Why did the poster have to sink to the level of telling Linda to "grow up"? THAT was a very immature response.

Jay

Sorry Linda, I think you are lying. Actually, "fabricating" would describe it better. You invented David to do the original post, waited to gauge response then went full-tilt. Yes, I recall other threads in which you have done similar: Haunted Hotels by Arnie, and Love in Italy by Lucy. You're a good serial writer - I'll give you that.

Sue

I've just read through some of the other responses and can only add that everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their travel 'policy', but I suggest that it is only reasonable that we apply our policies and opinions universally and consistently.<BR><BR>Therefore to those individuals who have advised (?) the original posters to 'grow up' or 'stop whining and roll with the punches' I say, so be it. I trust, however, that such people will also contact the aforementioned bus driver and cab driver and other relevant individuals and issue the same instructions to them, along with the admonition that 'tourism, along with the inevitable inconveniences and irritations that this involves, is a part of your community's economy and your lives. To institute a policy of harassment of tourists, based on your having being inconvenienced or irritated by a few of them, is unreasonable.'<BR><BR>Fair enough?<BR><BR>

Mike

This board is full of Europe lovers, but why would anyone attack David for relating his story. Even accuse him of lying? The fact is, Europe is full of assholes. Not everyone obviously, but plenty. I don't doubt his story for a minute. I can assure you that when Europeans visit here, almost none of them face adversity. Yet we're considered the rude people.<BR>

Capo

Linda, as Sue said, those incidents, as described, were outrageous. <BR><BR>However, I have to wonder about what you wrote at the beginning of your Part 7. "Everywhere" you went the first thing anyone said to you was how much they hated George Bush? You were told that all Americans are racist? You were told that Americans had overreacted to the September 11 attacks? Who was saying these things? Everyone? A majority of people? A minority of people? Just a few people? <BR><BR>Also, just because people may hate George Bush and be opposed to the death penalty hardly means they don't like Americans. <BR><BR>Finally, if, in fact, this supposed anti-Americanism is rampant in Lugano, perhaps we'll hear more about it from other recent travelers. After all, it doesn't seem reasonable that the anti-Americans in Lugano would merely single you and party out for their rants, would it?

andrew

To Sue: If the bus driver and the cab driver write into this board and whine about the bad treatment they receive from American tourist, I certainly will tell them to grow up too!

marcie

David,<BR>I'm so sorry (and surprised) to hear of your bad experience. We just returned from this area on Monday and had a fabulous time and the people were wonderful. We had an apartment in Porto Ronco (very close to Lugano and Lucarno) and loved it! We met many locals who couldn't have been nicer and even traveled into Italy on several occassions since it was only 10 minutes away. Give them another chance, they are really great people!! Marcie

Linda

To all of you who seem to know who I am. Let me clear this up. David is the husband of my best friend. He called me after his posting and asked me to write and confirm is report. <BR>So I am a "serial whiner." Hardly: David had to tell me how to get to the site and then it took me two days to get the posting to work. I teach juniors and seniors in Advanced Placement Calculus. I know whining and relating what happened to us was not whining. I was simply trying to verify David's story. <BR>What I meant by everyone telling us that they hated George Bush was that anytime from Germany to Switzerland that we had a "conversation" with someone that topic came up first. It was always prefaced with "we know you like him, but". As I said, we never responded one way or the other. <BR>The reason Switzerland got the bad rap was that it was in this country that so many people seemed to find the need to expound on the subject. The last straw was when two different waiters at the restuarant in Zurich found it necessary to distrub our meal with the topic of racism, the death penalty, the superiority of their school system, and that we were overreacting to 9/11. By the way even with their "superior" school system, I had to correct the subtraction of the waiter who shorted us on the change. <BR>Maybe our problem was that we were too nice. We tipped everywhere, even when the menu said it was included. We felt we should reward the good service. We tipped the tour guide on a trip to the castles, we tipped the cab drivers. We went out of our way to be good tourists. <BR>Yes, Switzerland is a beautiful country, but I have seen it. I have many more places in Europe I want to see. I fully expect good and bad experiences just as I fully expect to have great students and trouble makers. Being a teacher in the public school system makes it very easy for me to realize that there are great parents, overprotective parents, disinterested parents, and even ones who say that their child has never lied. <BR>Trust me, unless someone says something that I truly cannot help but respond to, I will not be back. This was my first and last time on an internet posting board. I have a life to live.

geta

I'm curious regarding some of you who really have been to Europe. How many locals do we really have substantive conversations? My experience is that unless you are fluent, or have friends or relatives in Europe, most of my contacts are typically only with shopkeepers, waiters, and the like (people in the service industry). They may or may not be rude, but they typically don't waste their energy dissing Bush, or making substantive negative comments. If rude, they are just abrupt, roll their eyes or, at worst, try to cheat you. My only substantive conversations with locals on the streets so to speak are those with friendly locals who are (by the very fact that they are talking to me) extremely patient and friendly.

Randy Malpaso

Well said. In fact you could drive a coach and horses through Linda's story. It is so obviously fabricated. (hint: Europeans dont tend to use the phrase 'get over it').<BR><BR>A troll which had many people fooled but pure lies. You should be ashamed of yourself, giving Americans a bad name.

Capo

Linda, thanks for further clarifying your comments in response to my questions. <BR><BR>I suppose if one likes George W. Bush then one would get very annoyed or upset hearing many people in another country -- be it Switzerland or elsewhere -- saying that they don't like him. However, if one does *not* like George W. Bush, I doubt hearing other people saying they don't like him would be annoying or upsetting. <BR><BR>You said that the reason Switzerland got the "bad rap" that it did was because it was in Switzerland that so many people seemed to find the need to expound on the subject [of Bush.] A bad rap from *you guys* sure. If you like Bush, that's understandable. But the Swiss sure wouldn't get a bad rap from me for expressing their dislike of Bush. In fact, I'd probably buy a drink for every Swiss person who said that. <BR> <BR>Anyway, as I said earlier, people in Lugano (or elsewhere) expressing their dislike of Bush is hardly the same as not liking Americans. Not even in the same ballpark. <BR><BR>Now, as for the waiters, I'm not sure waiters in any country should be expounding on their political views to diners. But you said this was only two waiters in Zurich, hardly the majority of Swiss people that you encountered. <BR><BR>Again, it's very unfortunate you had the bad experiences you did with the taxi and bus drivers in Lugano, and it's also too bad the two waiters (apparently) ended up spoiling your meals witht their need to express their opinions. And you certainly do not have to return to Switzerland ever again if that's your preference. But I think it's another matter to come on a board like this and "warn" people about your conclusion, that -- based on your very limited experiences -- the Swiss don't like Americans.

Sue

Well Tom, even though I’m not sure your policy will be entirely or even partially effective, I do encourage you to apply it universally as you have promised, for you will have ample opportunity. That bus driver and cabbie have been showing up on these boards now for some time. You will find them on any number of threads, complaining about those occasions when others make mistakes or mismanage things in one way or another. In other words, they complain when we fallible human beings behave like, well, fallible human beings. To a degree, I empathize; we irritating human beings can be, well, irritating. <BR><BR>They can be found promulgating their belief that if a person is known or even assumed to be, say, of a given nationality (e.g. American), that this is sufficient to explain any number behaviours, including less-than-thoughtful behaviours, ugly behaviours, and sometimes even downright Ugly behaviours (with a capital U.) The only variation in theme occurs when the behaviour is exhibited TOWARDS a given nationality, say American, as opposed to being exhibited BY said nationality. In other words, they are apt to believe that nationality alone can explain both the behaviour OF others, (such as when someone is loud, complains, or wears sweatpants and white sneakers) and also the behaviour TOWARDS others (such as when someone encounters a person who goes purple in the face and starts screaming, i.e. is loud, complains, and/or applies who-knows-what colour footwear to stomp on torn-up bus tickets.) <BR><BR>I can but hope, Tom, that your suggesting to people that they are infantile in their maturity produces this result: that they stop to consider that human behaviour can have many causes; no one thing, be it nationality, cultural insensitivity, evil intent, or immaturity necessarily explains every behaviour or even any behaviour to which they object. <BR><BR>Given what I’ve seen happen when other posters have made suggestions about the presumed character deficiencies of others (for you do not, apparently, have copyright on telling people to ‘grow up’ or ‘get over it’) I’m not optimistic that you will inspire your intended audience to do anything other than close their ears, leave the board (as Linda apparently is) or flame you. But hey, if you want to explore applying this policy, go for it. : - ) As I said, you don’t need to wait for the aforesaid bus driver or cab driver to show up, they’re already here. We have met them already, and they is us. : - ) <BR>

Sue

Anthony, I do apologize for getting your name wrong. I don't know how I took 'Anthony' to be 'Tom.'

Linda

Even though I tried not to return to this site, curousity got the best of me. I wondered how I could be misintrepreted again and, of course, found out rather quickly. I just want to set one thing straight. I did not vote for Bush for governor or president, therefore, I certainly was not defending him. I do not have any problem with what he has done to this point, but that does not mean I am a big supporter. Also, I try not to discuss politics with people - including my husband. We just cancel each others votes. The group was about evenly split. Just a note to clear one more wild assumption up. We just found it interesting that the subject would come up and we did have conversations with many people other than waiters and storekeepers. Some Americans do speak other languages!

get

I kind of wondered whether someone might bite on my fluency comment. Obviously, fluency is something that will make communication possible or, at least, easier. However, even at home, where one is presumably fluent in the local language, we don't typically go around starting up conversations with perfect strangers! It happens, sure, but not typically in the quantity suggested by Linda. UNLESS, and maybe this is it, Linda and David and their group went around trying to make friends with everyone in Lugano and Munich, such that they were so annoying, locals started insulting and snubbing Linda, David, etc. so they would leave the locals alone! I love it when people say, but I wasn't obnoxious, etc. If obnoxious people really had that self-awareness and/or control they would be obnoxious. Unfortunately, obnoxious people are oblivious and just think that they are normal.

get

Last 2 sentences should have read: <BR>If obnoxious people really had that self-awareness and/or control they would NOT be obnoxious. Unfortunately, obnoxious people are oblivious and just think that they are normal.

xxx

Linda, I am sorry to see that your first visit to this forum has provoked such unkind responses. Don't worry about it - it happens sometimes - and don't take it personally. Actually there are some very helpful and friendly people reading the forum, they just don't get involved with this sort of discussion. Thanks for clarifying the story, though, they sound like very distressing experiences.

Sue

Linda, you need not bow to any pressure to yield up any personal and private information about yourself, including how you exercised your voting franchise. Do not allow anyone - be it a participant on a messageboard, a passerby on a Munich sidewalk, or a waiter in any country --to con you into thinking that nosey-ness and obnoxiousness can be justified as being somehow part of cultural exchange and/or restaurant table service and/or part of negotiation of taxi fares. <BR><BR>I don't think it is productive for anyone to tell you how you should or should not feel about your experience in a given country, but it might be helpful to discuss more concrete problems, such as how to politely but firmly get a waiter to stick to doing his job instead of entertaining (?) his clients with his international political analysis, or how to cope with a bus driver who has been frustrated in his dream of pursuing a career in the theatre. : - ) I know it may be tempting to think that we can deal with these sorts of things by avoiding the places where we got a particularly bad dose of them, but I think you know deep down this isn't the case. <BR><BR>Meanwhile, lest you think only you ever have difficulty in coping with stressful travel moments, let me assure you everyone does. Well, almost everyone. Anyone here who claims they are without sin, that they have always dealt with every trying scenario with confidence, poise and aplomb, hey, I wish them well, although I do wonder why they spend time on a messageboard best suited for us mere travel mortals. <BR><BR><BR><BR>