I've resisted going to Germany but.....
May 8th, 2010, 12:26 AM
#61
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When talking about monuments and memorials, there is one in Berlin which is a bit on the sideline of public interest, the House of the Wannsee Conference (on the Southern shore of Lake Wannsee).
http://www.ghwk.de/engl/kopfengl.htm
It was there that the "final solution of the Jewish question", i.e. the deportation of all Jews to Concentration Camps (or rather: extermination camps) in the East.
The staff offers excellent tours, also in English (by appointment), and give an insight into the bureaucracy which made the Holocaust possible. It may not sound too exciting, but in fact it really gives you the creeps to understand that not only one madman or a handful of villains started the killing machinery but all kinds of Government and non-Government departments and institutions.
You will learn that it was not only those who actually pointed a gun at a victim or opened the gas valves in the camps who were involved, but thousands and thousands more, down to the clerk at German Rail who was processing the invoices for deporting Jews to Auschwitz or elsewhere (yes, there was a special fare which the Government was paying). Or the civil servants at the cities' housing departments who allocated apartments or houses which had been "bought" from Jewish owners (for a ridiculous amount) or from which they had been forced out to new tenants or owners.
The Camps themselves are locations of such unbelievable terror that everyone with half a sane mind can easily say that neither they nor anyone they knew would ever participate in such atrocities. But it took a country of "law-abiding" citizens who never pulled a trigger but thought that fulfillment of duty and a patriotic spirit (good or bad, my country) were more important than humanity, compassion, or following your conscience.
For whose who learned the lesson from the past (not saying that all learned that lesson), it meant that one should never again trust one leader or one government, no matter how democratically elected, to decide whether it is justified to kill other people for whatever shining good reason they try to sell you -- with the possible exception of defending your own country against a military action on your own territory.
http://www.ghwk.de/engl/kopfengl.htm
It was there that the "final solution of the Jewish question", i.e. the deportation of all Jews to Concentration Camps (or rather: extermination camps) in the East.
The staff offers excellent tours, also in English (by appointment), and give an insight into the bureaucracy which made the Holocaust possible. It may not sound too exciting, but in fact it really gives you the creeps to understand that not only one madman or a handful of villains started the killing machinery but all kinds of Government and non-Government departments and institutions.
You will learn that it was not only those who actually pointed a gun at a victim or opened the gas valves in the camps who were involved, but thousands and thousands more, down to the clerk at German Rail who was processing the invoices for deporting Jews to Auschwitz or elsewhere (yes, there was a special fare which the Government was paying). Or the civil servants at the cities' housing departments who allocated apartments or houses which had been "bought" from Jewish owners (for a ridiculous amount) or from which they had been forced out to new tenants or owners.
The Camps themselves are locations of such unbelievable terror that everyone with half a sane mind can easily say that neither they nor anyone they knew would ever participate in such atrocities. But it took a country of "law-abiding" citizens who never pulled a trigger but thought that fulfillment of duty and a patriotic spirit (good or bad, my country) were more important than humanity, compassion, or following your conscience.
For whose who learned the lesson from the past (not saying that all learned that lesson), it meant that one should never again trust one leader or one government, no matter how democratically elected, to decide whether it is justified to kill other people for whatever shining good reason they try to sell you -- with the possible exception of defending your own country against a military action on your own territory.
May 8th, 2010, 06:01 AM
#62
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thank you Cowboy for an honest view. I have seen a German film on Wannsee; it was made in a documentary stile following the Conference minute by minute. It was chilling .
As for " what people like me are capable of"....
no doubt one can find examples of atrocities committed by Americans, Russians, Israelis, Japanese, Romans, the Inquisition, Arabs, Attila the Hun...
but I am not sure one can find to many examples of PLANNED
systematic murder of "undesirables" .
The war and occupation of European countries not only caused deaths of millions, but also destroyed infrastructure, farms, production facilities etc. And, of course , the occupators and their collaborators stole every bit of property they could get their dirty hands on : from paintings to furniture, from jewelry to gold teeth.
When I lived in my home town, I met a nice girl who became a friend. Later, I learned her father was in jail for ten years for his collaboration with Germans. Every time I looked at her mother's diamond rings I could not help but wonder if they were taken from some women gassed in one of those places designed and run by "people just like me" .
As for " what people like me are capable of"....
no doubt one can find examples of atrocities committed by Americans, Russians, Israelis, Japanese, Romans, the Inquisition, Arabs, Attila the Hun...
but I am not sure one can find to many examples of PLANNED
systematic murder of "undesirables" .
The war and occupation of European countries not only caused deaths of millions, but also destroyed infrastructure, farms, production facilities etc. And, of course , the occupators and their collaborators stole every bit of property they could get their dirty hands on : from paintings to furniture, from jewelry to gold teeth.
When I lived in my home town, I met a nice girl who became a friend. Later, I learned her father was in jail for ten years for his collaboration with Germans. Every time I looked at her mother's diamond rings I could not help but wonder if they were taken from some women gassed in one of those places designed and run by "people just like me" .
May 8th, 2010, 07:16 AM
#64
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From what I know, Stalin wanted to starved the Ukrainians to death. As such, it was a planned and systematic genocide. Pol Pot,etc...
No one culture 'owns' the right to be labelled the most depraved. It's not a contest. Perhaps we should just ackowledge that no country is above abuses. no country is always right, and we should always question and debate the short AND long term results of our actions.
Last night I was wondering...what if...and this is of course theoretical...police, fire and army forces were to disappear for a long period of time in my country. How would people behave...today, next week, next month. In a world of chaos, I think our/my behavior would be different that what it is right now, having a coffee with a Nora Jones song in the background
No one culture 'owns' the right to be labelled the most depraved. It's not a contest. Perhaps we should just ackowledge that no country is above abuses. no country is always right, and we should always question and debate the short AND long term results of our actions.
Last night I was wondering...what if...and this is of course theoretical...police, fire and army forces were to disappear for a long period of time in my country. How would people behave...today, next week, next month. In a world of chaos, I think our/my behavior would be different that what it is right now, having a coffee with a Nora Jones song in the background
May 8th, 2010, 10:29 AM
#65
The 20th century produced many depraved people with absolutely no moral compass. Imagine living in a country while Hitler, Stalin and Mao were in power. Difficult to seperate them in terms of depravity. Plus there were so many more on a smaller scale. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
May 8th, 2010, 11:34 AM
#66
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"No one culture 'owns' the right to be labelled the most depraved. It's not a contest. Perhaps we should just ackowledge that no country is above abuses. no country is always right, and we should always question and debate the short AND long term results of our actions.'
ergo, no one is ever guilty of anything.
ergo, no one is ever guilty of anything.
May 8th, 2010, 11:59 AM
#68
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All the guilt that exists or ever existed is individual guilt. No nation is ever guilty or innocent. It's indvidual people that create the illusion of a collective guilt to foster their prejudice. Or other reasons like money, or.. , ...
As simple as that.
Wannabe victims.
As simple as that.
Wannabe victims.
May 8th, 2010, 12:18 PM
#71
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>>It's indvidual people that create the illusion of a collective guilt<<
Yes, that is disturbingly true.
>>As simple as that.<<
Guilt is never simple. It is a dark & murky pool of an unknown depth, which is why it's so easy to conjure the illusion you referenced above. There are as many innocent people who are inexplicably willing to accept guilt as there are those who happily and often erroneously play the victims. Meanwhile, the truly guilty often use the distraction of finger-pointing to slip free and the truly victimized remain hidden, silenced, even buried.
Yes, that is disturbingly true.
>>As simple as that.<<
Guilt is never simple. It is a dark & murky pool of an unknown depth, which is why it's so easy to conjure the illusion you referenced above. There are as many innocent people who are inexplicably willing to accept guilt as there are those who happily and often erroneously play the victims. Meanwhile, the truly guilty often use the distraction of finger-pointing to slip free and the truly victimized remain hidden, silenced, even buried.
May 8th, 2010, 12:29 PM
#72
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Well said, sap.
http://www.amazon.com/Author-Himself...dp/0691090408/
This would be a good book to start looking for answers. I do admire this guy.
http://www.amazon.com/Author-Himself...dp/0691090408/
This would be a good book to start looking for answers. I do admire this guy.
May 8th, 2010, 12:42 PM
#73
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Freberta: You don't have to justify carrying the Jewish torch. It is an important and admiral thing to do. Time may heal all wounds, but the darkness that led to those atrocities is alive and biding its time.
I don't think you're trying to play a victim. It seems to me that your intention is to shine a light as an honor to those who were victims and as a sort of mental flare trying to block others from taking that same road. Human nature is such that to forget is inevitably to repeat.
Still, remembering doesn't necessarily translate into repeatedly suffering for the sins of our fathers. While we can all acknowledge that something went deeply wrong; it's ridiculous to keep apologizing on behalf of dead monsters.
I don't think you're trying to play a victim. It seems to me that your intention is to shine a light as an honor to those who were victims and as a sort of mental flare trying to block others from taking that same road. Human nature is such that to forget is inevitably to repeat.
Still, remembering doesn't necessarily translate into repeatedly suffering for the sins of our fathers. While we can all acknowledge that something went deeply wrong; it's ridiculous to keep apologizing on behalf of dead monsters.
May 8th, 2010, 01:01 PM
#75
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the notion of individual guilt may be appealing (and often true), but the events are rarely seen in that light:
Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Japan ( care to blame the pilot?)
Russians raped thousands of women in Berlin ( names?)
Germans established and brought people to death camps ( who was the guy turning on the gas?)
guilt is never simple and never just individual.
Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Japan ( care to blame the pilot?)
Russians raped thousands of women in Berlin ( names?)
Germans established and brought people to death camps ( who was the guy turning on the gas?)
guilt is never simple and never just individual.
May 8th, 2010, 01:10 PM
#76
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Imho that statement is completely wrong. You can just not identify many of the idividuals anymore.
Has every American dropped an a-bomb, is every Russian a rapist? Is the sister of the rapist gulity of rape too? Is everyone that has the jewish faith a victim?
Has every American dropped an a-bomb, is every Russian a rapist? Is the sister of the rapist gulity of rape too? Is everyone that has the jewish faith a victim?
May 8th, 2010, 01:22 PM
#77
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logos999, I don't know who you are, but I think you are rude and disrespectful. How dare you even suggest or insinuate that I am looking for an excuse to be a victim -- of what? The murder of millions of innocent men, women and children. You seem to trivialize the value and meaning of life. Maybe you haven't had relatives who were hunted down and murdered because of their religion? How many people have you seen with prisoner numbers tatooed on their forearms, like cattle? As a child growing up, I had nightmares that the Nazis would come and get me. And I grew up in the U.S. Am I playing the role of a wannabe victim?
As I mentioned before, I do not hold the present generation of Germans responsible for the behavior of the previous generations, but my goodness gracious, someone has to take responsibility for what happened. You just can't forget, or else history will repeat itself. When it happens to your people for thousands of years, it's hard to forget. Sorry, there's no room in my heart to forgive the Nazis -- there's only room to remember their victims.
As I mentioned before, I do not hold the present generation of Germans responsible for the behavior of the previous generations, but my goodness gracious, someone has to take responsibility for what happened. You just can't forget, or else history will repeat itself. When it happens to your people for thousands of years, it's hard to forget. Sorry, there's no room in my heart to forgive the Nazis -- there's only room to remember their victims.
May 8th, 2010, 01:30 PM
#78
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"Has every American dropped an a-bomb, is every Russian a rapist? Is the sister of the rapist gulity of rape too? Is everyone that has the jewish faith a victim?"
No, but it is the way history defines events...sometimes an official or leader is named, but in a larger picture , guilt or celebration ( Americans liberated Europe, Russians sent a man into space etc..) is rightly or wrongly attached to a nation.
is attached to the whole nation.
No, but it is the way history defines events...sometimes an official or leader is named, but in a larger picture , guilt or celebration ( Americans liberated Europe, Russians sent a man into space etc..) is rightly or wrongly attached to a nation.
is attached to the whole nation.
May 8th, 2010, 01:34 PM
#79
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Hmm, I hope progress will come with future generations. If I would catregorize "people into boxes" you might fit in, who knows. It's your life, I hope you find peace. And that you always know, who "your" people are. As always in life, there's still alot to learn. Do you actually think you're a victim? Do you want respect for that? See, It's just the beginning.
May 8th, 2010, 01:36 PM
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Ah-h-h, and here is where the pool of guilt gets particularly murky. There are levels and categories of guilt. There are scapegoats; there is a kind of contagious evil and; most alarmingly, there are all those individuals who were "just doing their job," who were taught not to question authority, or didn't bother to question at all.
