I've resisted going to Germany but.....
Apr 30th, 2010, 03:47 AM
#21
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>Will people be killed this year? You will see some statistics on how many cars were torched tomorrow in the papers and how many people will be severly injured.
You need how many idiots to run this spectacle in Berlin (and these are usually the same idiots and their fellow travellers every year)? 100? 200? out of a country of 80 millions...
Show me a place where there are no such idiots and I show you a totalitarian police state...
You need how many idiots to run this spectacle in Berlin (and these are usually the same idiots and their fellow travellers every year)? 100? 200? out of a country of 80 millions...
Show me a place where there are no such idiots and I show you a totalitarian police state...
Apr 30th, 2010, 05:52 AM
#27
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>So, if you deny that Hitler wasn't a Socialist does it change the historical facts?
What do you mean with "Hitler was a socialist"???
No, it does not change any historical facts, but it is a pretty weird claim. Or do you mean because Nazis called themselves "National Socialists"? Then you must believe that the German Democratic Republic was democratic...
One of the first steps after Nazis gained power was destruction of the Social Democrats - SPD being pretty much the only entity that could organize any meaningful and widespread resistance against Nazis.
What do you mean with "Hitler was a socialist"???
No, it does not change any historical facts, but it is a pretty weird claim. Or do you mean because Nazis called themselves "National Socialists"? Then you must believe that the German Democratic Republic was democratic...
One of the first steps after Nazis gained power was destruction of the Social Democrats - SPD being pretty much the only entity that could organize any meaningful and widespread resistance against Nazis.
Apr 30th, 2010, 10:27 AM
#29
altamiro; Conservatives are trying to paint 'Hitler' as a socialist. Reading any historical facts and one knows he is right wing. Hitler used Italy's Mussolili's fascist government as a 'model'. The historical facts clearly point this out. Lolo--Sorry to have stolen your thread. Richard
Apr 30th, 2010, 11:23 AM
#30
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You should watch Hitlerjunge Quex, it's verboten in Germany and a Nazi propaganda film from the thirties. It's a bad movie, but it aimes to convert Communists into Nazis, by showing how much alike those "movements" are. It features a brilliant Götz George, a communist that becomes a Nazi. It also shows how "boring" the communist youth groups are compared to those fashionable Nazis.
Post war history writing changed much of the actual 20th century history that lead to the Nazis, maybe it's because the winners always rewrite history, maybe because the Nazi crimes weere so big they had to be focused on.
But again it's the "we" the left were the good people" while they were "the bad" people. If you count numbers of murdered people, the Nazis win, but the communists aren't bad at murdering either.
They are of the same breed.
Those conservatives aren't rewriting history, they just don't follow the left vs. right dogma anymore. It pays to dig deeper. Read the propaganda.
Post war history writing changed much of the actual 20th century history that lead to the Nazis, maybe it's because the winners always rewrite history, maybe because the Nazi crimes weere so big they had to be focused on.
But again it's the "we" the left were the good people" while they were "the bad" people. If you count numbers of murdered people, the Nazis win, but the communists aren't bad at murdering either.
They are of the same breed.
Those conservatives aren't rewriting history, they just don't follow the left vs. right dogma anymore. It pays to dig deeper. Read the propaganda.
Apr 30th, 2010, 01:30 PM
#32
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I think that there was an early socialist element to the National Socialist Party. It was headed in Northern Germany by Gregor and Otto Strasser. Goebbels and Otto Stasser fought it out in Berlin for ideological control of the party. Strasser was eventually expelled from the party and physically attacked. Berlin was a bloody, violent place.
It is irony that Goebbels started as Strasser's assistant and ardent socialist, and later switched to Hitler's side in the ideological struggle for the party.
Strasser advocated a middle ground of socialism, something short of communism.
John Maynard Keynes (The Economic Consequences of Peace) predicted a violent struggle by political extremes as a result of the peace treaty forced on Germany at the end of WWI. He felt that the intent to destroy Germany's economy would sink Europe's economy and delay any normalcy of relations between the countries. Logos is right that when people are backed to the wall, it is hard to tell which crazy way they will jump. Germany could have gone Communist instead of National Socialist.
A Marshall Plan at the end of WWI might have saved us a lot of trouble. It might have saved Germany from falling into the hands of a mad Austrian, who had learned to hate Jews at his father's knee.
Forgive my windiness.
Regards, Gary
It is irony that Goebbels started as Strasser's assistant and ardent socialist, and later switched to Hitler's side in the ideological struggle for the party.
Strasser advocated a middle ground of socialism, something short of communism.
John Maynard Keynes (The Economic Consequences of Peace) predicted a violent struggle by political extremes as a result of the peace treaty forced on Germany at the end of WWI. He felt that the intent to destroy Germany's economy would sink Europe's economy and delay any normalcy of relations between the countries. Logos is right that when people are backed to the wall, it is hard to tell which crazy way they will jump. Germany could have gone Communist instead of National Socialist.
A Marshall Plan at the end of WWI might have saved us a lot of trouble. It might have saved Germany from falling into the hands of a mad Austrian, who had learned to hate Jews at his father's knee.
Forgive my windiness.
Regards, Gary
Apr 30th, 2010, 01:58 PM
#33
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Very few people in the entire world believe Hitler was a good guy. I wouldn't blame his phenomenon on the current Germans who have certainly learned their forebearers' lesson. Historically he was first a Socialist, but he was ever the opportunist and he took advantage of a gullible group at a vulnerable time.
That being said, we should all realize by now that "right" and "left" are rather useless political terms given far more weight than they deserve. Viewing any of it from a long perspective, one can see there is no real standing definition as the positions behind them are always in a state of flux depending on who is in power and how they wish to manipulate the masses. The terms have been bandied about for generations and yet have broad and conflicting meanings in different places and times to different people.
I personally find it more logical to follow one's own inner compass rather than tack onto politicians with their fingers to the wind.
To me, Hitler is the prime example of why we should nurse a healthy suspicion about anyone who wants to be a leader anywhere. Heaven forbid any of us should be so gullible or vulnerable again, but history does have a stunning way of repeating itself and some have a need to be led.
That being said, we should all realize by now that "right" and "left" are rather useless political terms given far more weight than they deserve. Viewing any of it from a long perspective, one can see there is no real standing definition as the positions behind them are always in a state of flux depending on who is in power and how they wish to manipulate the masses. The terms have been bandied about for generations and yet have broad and conflicting meanings in different places and times to different people.
I personally find it more logical to follow one's own inner compass rather than tack onto politicians with their fingers to the wind.
To me, Hitler is the prime example of why we should nurse a healthy suspicion about anyone who wants to be a leader anywhere. Heaven forbid any of us should be so gullible or vulnerable again, but history does have a stunning way of repeating itself and some have a need to be led.
Apr 30th, 2010, 03:44 PM
#34
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>To me, Hitler is the prime example of why we should nurse a healthy suspicion about anyone who wants to be a leader anywhere.
2500 years ago, in ancient Greece, somebody (I forgot who it was) said that if a man wants to be a leader, it is a sure sign that this man is not suitable for a leadership position.
2500 years later, it still holds true.
2500 years ago, in ancient Greece, somebody (I forgot who it was) said that if a man wants to be a leader, it is a sure sign that this man is not suitable for a leadership position.
2500 years later, it still holds true.
Apr 30th, 2010, 04:53 PM
#35
Hitler had the left and right gravatating towards his agenda. There was an early element of Socialism in his agenda, but it soon disappeared. And 'right wing' or 'left wing' is very important how a country evolves. Left or right is not useless. It's how a country determines it 'fate'. In the 1920's and early 1030's, there was a hint of Socialism, but he gravitated towards faschism and his government was was NOT a Socialist government. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
May 1st, 2010, 02:08 AM
#36
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I'll skip the political rhetoric since it doesn't belong on a travel forum (but if you are interested here is an interesting article this am on BBC:
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/
Please come to Germany and experience this wonderful land and her people.
My husband, of Jewish descent, has been uncomfortable with anything relating to the WWII era. On numerouse visits to France, he specifically requested not to visit Normandy beaches & American cemeteries there, nor the town near Limoges destroyed and left as a living tesimony (can't remember the name at the moment), no concentration camp tours, etc. As I have visited these years before and out of respect for him, I never pushed the point.
We have lived in Germany now for almost a year. He loves the country and the people. We have been welcomed in our community and had wonderful experiences during our travels.
We happen upon WWI and WWII memorials everywhere we go--the Germans are a straight forward people and deal with their history in an honest manner. Many are more pragmatic than many Americans, after all, soldiers on both sides were just doing what their superiors and their country asked of them--to each side, a just cause at the time. The Germans have Hitler, we have Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos....what people doesn't have some part of their history they'd like to re-write? What country doesn't have a few raving lunatics?
My husband is learning to get more comfortable with himself and his "issues" while living here. We visited the Verdun area and the Argonne-Meuse cemetery this spring, and while it was an emotional day, he is very glad to have had the experience.
If you come with an open mind and heart, I think you will have a pleasant surprise waiting for you.
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/
Please come to Germany and experience this wonderful land and her people.
My husband, of Jewish descent, has been uncomfortable with anything relating to the WWII era. On numerouse visits to France, he specifically requested not to visit Normandy beaches & American cemeteries there, nor the town near Limoges destroyed and left as a living tesimony (can't remember the name at the moment), no concentration camp tours, etc. As I have visited these years before and out of respect for him, I never pushed the point.
We have lived in Germany now for almost a year. He loves the country and the people. We have been welcomed in our community and had wonderful experiences during our travels.
We happen upon WWI and WWII memorials everywhere we go--the Germans are a straight forward people and deal with their history in an honest manner. Many are more pragmatic than many Americans, after all, soldiers on both sides were just doing what their superiors and their country asked of them--to each side, a just cause at the time. The Germans have Hitler, we have Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos....what people doesn't have some part of their history they'd like to re-write? What country doesn't have a few raving lunatics?
My husband is learning to get more comfortable with himself and his "issues" while living here. We visited the Verdun area and the Argonne-Meuse cemetery this spring, and while it was an emotional day, he is very glad to have had the experience.
If you come with an open mind and heart, I think you will have a pleasant surprise waiting for you.
May 1st, 2010, 08:09 AM
#38
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It's time....
My husband and I are also visiting Germany in July, and planning a trip down the Rhine and Mosel rivers, so please let me know about your experience and interesting places.
We are from South Africa and are also currently struggeling with building a new nation with a very young democracy after apartheid. There are still a lot of hurt and resentment, as I believe could be the case in other countries, like Germany, too. That's why we are also planning to visit the Jewish museum in Berlin. In some weird way I hope to understand something of our South African story in a new way.
So if you plan to visit any Jewish museums, please let me know.
Hope you're going to blog while on your trip - it seems like we might have overlapping interests!
Enjoy
My husband and I are also visiting Germany in July, and planning a trip down the Rhine and Mosel rivers, so please let me know about your experience and interesting places.
We are from South Africa and are also currently struggeling with building a new nation with a very young democracy after apartheid. There are still a lot of hurt and resentment, as I believe could be the case in other countries, like Germany, too. That's why we are also planning to visit the Jewish museum in Berlin. In some weird way I hope to understand something of our South African story in a new way.
So if you plan to visit any Jewish museums, please let me know.
Hope you're going to blog while on your trip - it seems like we might have overlapping interests!
Enjoy
May 1st, 2010, 11:25 PM
#39
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Klondike - thanks so much for your thoughts. Somehow the gist of my original posting seemed to have gotten off on different aspects of Germany. You brought it right back.
I will be going with a completely open mind and eager to embrace the country - both the people and the culture.
AKruger - I definitely plan to visit some of the synagogues/museums. Will let you know.
Will write about the trip when I return - it usually takes me a while since I have to get back to the reality of my life again. Also - have to plant my flowers before the real hot weather kicks in.
I will be going with a completely open mind and eager to embrace the country - both the people and the culture.
AKruger - I definitely plan to visit some of the synagogues/museums. Will let you know.
Will write about the trip when I return - it usually takes me a while since I have to get back to the reality of my life again. Also - have to plant my flowers before the real hot weather kicks in.
May 7th, 2010, 04:14 AM
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My brother, along with my husband and myself will be going to Germany in June. I refer to this trip as "The Second Generation, returning to our roots". My parents were survivors! And, of course I have heard both the wonderful times they spent as young people in Germany, and the horrific times. I want to experience sitting in a cafe in Berlin, imagining how it was for my parents, in the prime of their life! I want to see the house that my father was born in. Despite what happened 60+ years ago...Germany is the birthplace of my ancestors and I feel that I have an obligation to visit and experience it for myself. I hope to visit the grave of my grandfathers, and those that have no graves. I go with mixed emotions, but also with a sense of pride and respect for my past & my heritage. It's about time I take this trip!
