I thought I mentioned it clearly enough above:
the questions weren�t meant to elicit opinions on whether posters thought those sites are �must see,�� bc that�s an opinion.

instead, I was �updating� those following to say that we�ve narrowed the mess down to a few decisions hinging on questions our family is still asking ourselves.

How else are we supposed to interpret it? For example, your words: "Do we need to see the Vatican?"

You dont "need" to see anything. You don't have to see anything you do not want to see. If you and your family not want to see it, don't bother. But if it is something that someone in your family really wants to see, then include it. It really is that simple.

On thr flip side, if you are ambivalent now and it does not make sense. then skip these things.

This will not be yours or your kids" last trip to Europe. You can target a smaller area for this trip and plan your next trip around the areas you skipped. IMHO, for what it's worth, you are biting off more than you can chew. Which I and others have advised. You seem persistent to include Italy, France and England. That's fine. It would not be my choice.

I ended my post with "these are questions we're asking ourselves."

And with that, I'm out. Have a wonderful trip.

I came across more rude and disrespectful than I intended, and I apologize, but your previous post, if you read it aloud, could be interpreted as very passive (or not so passive) aggressive.
My intent with the post was to update everyone that kept telling me, "simplify, simplify, simplify." It was my way of saying, "we've talked and here are the questions our family is still discussing."
I cannot assume we'll be back to Europe; no one can. Additionally, due to health problems I don't care to disclose, I don't know if I will ever make it back.
So, when someone in a forum responds disrespectfully to a post where the poster was just coming to sincerely ask for help/guidance and they get a response like yours; surely you understand how it can be interpreted in the way it was.
Regardless, I apologize for reacting in the snotty way that I did.

If this may be your last/only trip, decide on your goals, perhaps ranked by importance. Then return here for corrections of impossibilities and logistical difficulties. If you have some dates, that would help. Also, you will have to consider day of week closures of sites that can foul up the best laid plans.

Sorry, but I don't think anyone here has been disrespectful. I do think we're all struggling to help when your apparent desire is to visit far-flung and/or time-consuming sights even as the logistical challenges are pointed out and knowing you have a limited amount of time. Now that you're saying this may be your one and only trip to Europe, we can't possibly tell you what your priorities should be, whether particular things are worth the time and effort to visit at the expense of not seeing other things, etc. We do get it... choices are hard, esp. when everyone in your family has their own list . But at some point, someone has to take ownership of your plans, get the family to agree on an itinerary (with perhaps some compromising) and start booking.

I for one am finding it difficult to understand what exactly your present thinking is, what's been dropped, what's still in, which city sights are absolutes, what city tours you're taking (if any), etc. I can't figure out exactly how much time you have anywhere (outside of transit times).

Of course we all know there are personal interests and trying to please everyone, but logistical considerations play a part too, so I fully comprehend your dilemma. It is even more difficult because you have not been to any of these places and must rely on what you have read and other�s opinions.
I will throw out a few thoughts, and hope a perspective that might help.

Even with my intense interest in Art (minor in Art history with an emphasis on the Renaissance), I have not felt that, with the considerable time, effort and cost, arranging a trip to include The Last Supper for 15 minutes (or even 30) was a good option for my family or even just DH and me. It would have to be a true life long dream, or a bucket list wish for me to do that, especially with a family of five.

Another way to think about this. If it were in Rome, would you and your family spend a day of your vacation in line to see it for 15 to 30 minutes? If you would not, then realize you are considering virtually the same thing by traveling a day and spending a night to see it. You would be spending hours of travel and sacrificing an entire day, which could be spent doing many, many other wonderful things, for a few minutes with a painting that likely interests only one person.

You are already going to Rome. Take advantage of all of the amazing art there rather than spending two days chasing a few minutes experience in Milan. The Vatican Galleries are fantastic, as is the Sistine chapel, but they can be suffocatingly crowded and exhausting. Is your interest in art enough to warrant two or three hours? If your interest is really great, you can book a tour which avoids some of the lines.

I highly recommend the Basilica, no matter what. It is one of the greatest churches on the planet.

Another gallery that is fantastic and easier to plan because it has limited set times is The Borghese. it is beautiful and brilliant, a great museum for people who want to see great art without subjecting themselves to long waits. I love this gallery!

Another place that is very interesting and easy to include is the Capuchin Crypt. Look it up.

Would you consider stoping for a couple of hours in Florence to see Michelangelo�s David? Surely one of the most powerful sculptures ever created. Santa Croce or the Duomo? You would spend no extra time traveling. It is a stop on the way.

There is so much wonderful art everywhere. You will likely feel you are having a feast of art in Rome and Venice. Venice, itself, is a work of Art, like walking through sculpture without setting foot in a gallery. Burano is like being side of a painting,

We are targeting May 30 to June 26 ending in London.

This is helpful and we hadn't heard of the Crypt. Thank you!

Giving a very direct opinion here. If you may not return (We never know, do we? Illness and Covid has taken most of my last years of travel.), I say, do what makes you and your wife happy. Make each day of this trip really count, not just for the kids. They will remember that you took them, and can hopefully return for themselves. Don’t look back and wish you had spent less time on trains and planes and more time walking the cobbles of Rome and the Canals of Venice. I have never heard anyone say they wished they had included another flight.
Honestly, I would try to do MSM for your wife. Perhaps stay the night there. I don’t know if it is great or not. It used to be on my bucket list, but that list is shorter now. I do know that when DH has included things special to me, it was incredible and loving and memorable. I would certainly make that “experience” for my wife more of a priority then a quick look at The Last Supper.

I appreciate the sincerity of this post; I really do. Thank you.
I'm truly not trying to be wishy-washy, just seeking help from others with experience, so I appreciate it.

I saw the Last Supper on the Grand Tour I discussed earlier. I remember it as a disappointment. The viewing time was short, and you could not get anywhere near it. I do not know how it is set up now. I suggest your son does a little research.

He's doing that as we speak. I think he's decided he can skip that if we can stop in Florence to see The David.

I'll give you another reason to stop in Florence for your son... Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper in Milan may be the most famous Last Supper, but it is only one in a long list of Last Suppers painted in many cities throughout Italy. Taddeo Gaddi's Last Supper on the refectory wall at the Basilica di Santa Croce in Florence was painted 150 years earlier, and there are at least nine other Last Suppers in Florence alone, all painted before da Vinci's, and one by a self-taught nun which was painted around the same time as da Vinci's. Gaddi covered the entire wall of the refectory with the Supper, a Tree of Life and scenes of miracles. It's amazing. Santa Croce contains the tombs of Galileo, Michelangelo, Macchiavelli, Rossini and monuments honoring others such as Fermi, Marconi, da Vinci, Nightingale, Dante.

https://www.visitflorence.com/what-t...nta-croce.html

https://www.thegeographicalcure.com/...tings-in-italy

This. Is. Amazing.

I do not think you are being at all wishy washy. This is new to you with many unknowns. Even with lots of information, advice and opinions, it must still feel as if you are re-inventing the wheel. You can only make a thoughtful guess about which things are most important to you. Don’t worry about hitting it 100%. On every trip, something seems to go awry and sometime, it turns into the best or funniest memory.
Bravo to your son for serious thinking. David is what the ultimate sculpture is about. People who don’t think they like sculpture see it and say, “now I get it.” I felt like kneeling in respect for the Devine guidance to the hands that could create such a masterpiece.

If your decision is a stop in Florence,

You could depart Rome super early and see as much of Florence as possible before heading on to Venice. Check open days for the Academia and have tickets ahead for everything you want to see. Consider booking a tour that includes seeing David. With such a short time, it would be worth it. You want to leave early enough to arrive in Venice before dark unless your hotel is easy to find.

OTOH, you could stay a night in Florence and go to Venice early the next morning.
Pro is time in Florence a bit less rushed and an easy morning arrival in Venice.
Con is walking to and checking into another hotel for just one night.

There is one more option, probably the best, IMHO.
Depart Rome late on the last full day there. You will be tired, but you will be on the train to relax. Get to Florence in time to check into a hotel and have dinner. Early the next morning, nice and rested, tour Florence, see as much as possible by mid-afternoon and depart for Venice, arriving by late afternoon or early evening. Yes?

Everything Jean says about Santa Croce makes it one of most beautiful, interesting and memorable buildings I have visited, a “don’t miss it” sight.

Doesn’t this make you want to stay a couple of days (or weeks) in Florence? Florence streets can be teeming with people, but many of the museums will have plenty of room for lovers of Art, and these things above are not even including the big museums like The Uffizi. If this really appeals to your family, you could spend at least a couple of nights.

I think you're having the same dilemma many of us have had while planning our dream vacation.
The delicate balance between priorities, time, and money.
I think you're doing it right:
1. Have a fairly definite outline of where & what you hope to see
2. Let us pick it apart/add suggestions
3. Do a time/$$ estimate of what you'll realistically be able to do
4. Start making reservations!

I'd encourage you not to jump to #4 if your trip isn't until next summer. Your final product may look a lot different than what you started with in step 1.
If you're like me, this planning phase is part of the fun! (and educational!).
Good luck!

We did a very similar trip with our kids at about the same age (you have more days, which will be great, but include a few days of down time to prevent burnout (and to do laundry)
It was first time to Europe for us. We like art, but love history, and love activities.
Our trip looked like this:
Flew into Rome & immediately took the fast train to Naples, then regional train to Sorrento for 3 nights.
First full day was a private driver that took our family down the Amalfi Coast (the only way to see the AC in 1 day). Proved to be our family's favorite day of all time.
2nd day was recovery: slept in, swam, walked around town, lemon grove visit.
3rd day, headed back towards Rome, but stopped at Pompeii (they store your luggage) and then traveled back to Rome - checked in by dinner
3 nights in Rome: Vatican tour. Coliseum tour, Appian Way bike tour were the big events of each day. Visited the other famous sites when the big tour was finished.
Train to Florence for 2 nights. Seeing the David, and climbing to the top of the Duomo were our favorites. Lazy afternoon for the kids while we sat at a local laundromat & drank wine.
A guided day trip to Sienna & San Gimignano would be another great day out of the city.
Train to Venice for 2 nights. Plenty of time to seethe highlights
We then flew to London for 5 nights prior to flying home.

We had a great time. I'm sure your clan will too!