Elvira, those State Department warnings caution that you may be getting lured into a scam if people offer you food or a drink. Remember that the next time you're in Vegas. <BR>There is currently no Travel Warning for Italy on the State Dept. Web site. The Consular Information Sheet for Italy does warn about scams, pickpockets, etc., but so do those for several other countries in Western Europe. Believe this is counter to what other people have claimed. In most cases, those advisories note that the problems arise in particular areas that are thick with tourists. Also, at least one info sheet uses the word "urchin," which may be the only place the word appears in any gov't Web site. Pity. <BR>I would like to try to convey again (since I failed pretty miserably before) that I am not urging people to stroll blithely along without a care or a worry. I am saying that you have to be careful anywhere, especially in crowded areas and especially especially around tourist attractions, in whatever country. <BR>Random curiosity: What's the most appalling place you've been robbed? I'm thinking about the Vatican, Holocaust sites, etc. <BR>

MarthaP: <BR> <BR>Well, I KNEW those cocktail waitresses were up to no good...devious little wenches. <BR> <BR>knock on wood, thank my lucky stars, thankyajayzuss...never been robbed while traveling. once, had my paris par arrondissement picked out of my pocket, but then again, I once left my camera case on the subway (I had the camera, thank heavens). see my previous post re dufus....

In Italy 12 times, hassled by gypsies but managed to get rid of them by screaming (Venice and Florence). Manhandled on a bus in Rome, followed in Milan, but robbed in PRAGUE IN THE POST OFFICE. Not very glamourous....eyes off camera perhaps 6 seconds while reaching for change. Should never have had the camera off my shoulder, my fault. <BR> <BR>Eyes open and homework. Paying attention to what other's have experienced is good advice. We became seasoned travelers by traveling! <BR> <BR>Speaking of it could happen anywhere, my hotel room was burglarized in VANCOUVER of all places. All of this happens anywhere and everywhere. <BR>

Our flight tickets were "pursed picked" out of my wife's purse in the New York Hilton & Towers Elevator. Then at the airport, while trying to get tickets re-issued, the waist pack was stolen.

We have some understanding and rugged folks out there. You should expect to be cheated when standing in a crowd of tourists (where else would you expect tourists to be standing?). Getting mugged is no big deal as long as they don't get your money. <BR>Well, listen. Mugging is a big deal. You can sustain lasting physical and psychological harm. <BR>And what is this about being vigilant. How in the world are you going to constantly watch your back. And even if you could, is that any way to vacation?

Since everyone's experiences are different I doubt that anyone's testimonial of a good or bad experience is very instructive. That being said, however, I appreciate the original WARNING post. After all, information is a positive, and it is up to the reader to do with it what he or she wants. On a recent trip to Italy (bear with my testimonial until I get to the point) I left my camera on the train from Rome to the airport. I was able to go back for it about 15 minutes later with the train full of people ready to leave the station when I found it laying on the seat where it had been left. I guess I can chalk it up to luck that it was still there but it is just one "positive story" that offsets a "negative" one. Meanwhile, later on in our trip, we were accosted by a "mad man" in covent garden in London while we were sitting having tea. <BR>These stories are representative of nothing more than personal experiences that can happen anywhere. <BR>The example of free taxi rides to Murano should have set off a bell that there was going to be a hard sell attached. It is no different than a life insurance agent offering to deliver a free world atlas to you in your home...it is so obvious that it cannot be called a scam! <BR>

I'm Italian, and I live in Milano: I was a bit amused reading this message thread, but definitely I wasn't offended: it's true, here in Italy we have a lot of "too clever" people always trying to deceive or rob tourists. As I'm concerned, I've never been pickpocketed, (knock wood...) but I've been raised here and my mom fed me street-wiseness with her milk. I use daily the subway and buses, but my purse is never out of my sight. <BR>I have only one suggestion, valid everywhere: don't look like a tourist. Don't go around clutching a map (study it before leaving your hotel room); try to look at ease; keep your valuables in a safe place and your camera out of people's sight (unless you want to shoot a pickpocet at work, you'll have plenty of time to draw it...); avoid crowded places (if you can; and if you can't, be wary of what's happening around). <BR>I travel a lot, both for business and pleasure, in Italy and abroad (included USA), quite often on my own, and behaving this way everything went OK. Try to communicate with italian people (a few of us DO speak english!), you'll get plenty of information and some help, if needed. <BR>And don't be too scared, the most of us are good guys...

RE: being vigilant to avoid street crime <BR>someone wrote 'who would want to travel that way, anyway?' Well, I, for one. My WEbster's defines vigilant as being 'alertly watchful, esp. for danger.' One of the reasons I travel is to get my mind out of the routine (rut) of daily existence. I savor the heightened awareness demanded by unfamiliar surroundings; I feel as if I am more alive when I am forced to pay better attention to the details. You don't have to agree with that, but in my mind, having a 'heightened awareness' level is not so far removed from being 'alertly watchful.' (Consider being extra attentive to: traffic that might run over you, for the byway you need to take, architectural details mentioned in a guidebook, for clues about the weather when one can't escape it in one's private automobile, for clean public restrooms, for delicious scents wafting out of promising restaurants.) Half the reason I've never had my pocket picked in HOuston is that I've been on a downtown sidewalk probably ONCE. I've not had my pocket picked in NYC but I did have someone stick his hand UP my shorts when I was 17. Eighteen years later I can still feel it. (I'd rather have had my pocket picked.) When I was in Rome in June, we were standing on a corner on the Via Condotti, and the man in front of me reached into a woman's bag ahead of him and lifted out her wallet. I grabbed his forearm and said, "No." He looked at me and let go. I approached the woman after we crossed the street, and she was a LOCAL. If criminals 'hit' tourists more often, maybe it's because said tourists are less vigilant than the locals. In my recent experience, the reverse was true. I was hypervigilant, if anything, and this Roman lady was too lax. Every guide I've consulted about Rome mentions street crime. Forewarned IS forearmed, and frankly I'm surprised that anyone would be surprised by the existence of street crime in Italy. (Maybe the difference between Italy and other European countries has something to do with relative 'personal comfort zones.' Italians are close-talkers, walkers, live-rs, to borrow from Seinfeld. Americans are not, nor in my experience are northern Europeans.) My bro-in-law, a police officer, asked about the crime after our recent trip. I responded, 'the street crime is probably worse, (relatively) minor property crimes. However, the biggest headline in the papers during our visit was a murder. HOw often does a murder make the national news here? That tells me a lot about the relative level of crime in Italy vs. the US.' (i.e. that the US is worse off.) He agreed.

I just got back from Italy as well and nothing too exciting happened to me (crime-wise). I did have a group of gypsies approach, but a firm yell shrunk them back. I also saw a guy chasing another guy who took his wallet in San Lorenzo (Florence), but many people helped him tackle the thief down. Also saw another person who got pickpocketed but held on to one of the gypsy girls who did it and took her to the police in Rome. Overall, not worse or better then what I expected. <BR> <BR>One advice I would recommend is that do not carry your wallet at all. There is really no reason to carry your wallet other than traveling from one city to another. When there is a safe or safety deposit box in every hotel, why risk carrying a big, fat, wallet that is irresistable to pickpocketers? <BR> <BR>Just carry enough cash to get by for the day and may be one credit/ATM card. Then, even if you get pickpocketed, all you've lost is 20 or 30 bucks and a credit card that you have to replace (a whole lot better proposition than replacing your entire wallet). And thieves won't bother you since they won't see anything bulging out of your pockets. <BR> <BR>Just be aware and prepared and you will have a fabulous time.

I love Pams posting, "I savor the heightened awareness demanded by unfamiliar surroundings; I feel as if I am more alive when I am forced to pay better attention to the details" Is she putting us on or what? Maybe she should try prison sometime. She really could use her "heightened awareness demanded by unfamiliar surroundings" to ward off who knows what. She would get something far more exciting than a hand up her shorts, I'm sure. <BR>Then there's superwoman, Pam, grabbing a pickpocket's arm -- gee I thought she was going to say she wrestled him to the ground. <BR>Then the guy who claims he didn't experience anything "crimewise" and proceed to tell us about witnessing several serious crimes in a week. <BR>Someone counseling us to stay out of crowd when vacation. <BR>It's getting deep around here.

sorry folks, but I can't hold my tongue. I was in Italy a month ago. visited several cities. Now i grow up on the mean streets of the Bronx, NY, so my perception may be skewed. However, it appearred to me that the crime was no worse than it would be here. Yes, street vendors will try to con you. Yes, pickpockets will try to rob you. Yes, you should try not to look like a target. But for pete's sake, if I didn't look like a tourist walking along Lungarno and via Bufalini in Florence with my camera in a fanny pack with a water bottle and a map in my hand, then I don't know who does. I did witness an exchange of stolen goods between 2 pickpockets. A watch. Something small and easily hidden. <BR> <BR>In Rome I walked from the Palatino to via Nazionale to see an exhibit of El Greco. Then I found my way to Trevi. By myxelf, with a map. Yes I was watching everything around me. I even stopped and shopped along the way. But I went out of my way to not be stupid about it. <BR> <BR>All in all, I had less hassle getting around in Italy than I ever had in New York. <BR>

Elenora counsels us not to look like tourists. Well, what does someone look like when they are consulting a map? And how do you watch everything around you when you're map reading? <BR>This whole thing about disguising as a local is ridiculous. It's as silly as the rental car companies removing their license plate frames to disguise their cars.

I was in Italy in April and I was prepared to be a victim of some sort of crime while on my trip. Mostly because of postings on this forum. I was glad for the advice and luckly nothing happened to me or the other people with me. However reading this posting I might have been charged more for a cab ride than it was worth. But I know it was less than I would have paid for the same ride in the states. So what's a few dollars here and there. I am glad for all the advice on this forum because it helps you to be more aware even if you think you are a very careful person.

I was in Italy in April and I was prepared to be a victim of some sort of crime while on my trip. Mostly because of postings on this forum. I was glad for the advice and luckly nothing happened to me or the other people with me. However reading this posting I might have been charged more for a cab ride than it was worth. But I know it was less than I would have paid for the same ride in the states. So what's a few dollars here and there. I am glad for all the advice on this forum because it helps you to be more aware even if you think you are a very careful person.

Watching a couple of people getting hauled in by police is not exactly my definition of "experiencing" serious crimes. <BR> <BR>I've seen a person killed by a car, people rioting and looting, and a person get brutally beaten. Now those are serious crimes (and all experienced in US). <BR> <BR>Like I said before, NOTHING happened to me (there is a difference) while I was in Italy. And I think what most people on this thread are saying is that if you are alert and take some simple precautions (it is very HARD to not look like a tourist, but there are other precautions that you can take), the chance that you will experience any petty theft will greatly decrease. Nothing more nothing less.

crime is everywhere except san sebstian, <BR>spain. just got back from milan & perugia, italy. also barcelona and san sebastain, spain. after 13 hours of flying from san diego to LA to Brussels and no sleep. i fall asleep on a sabena flight to milan with my back pack under the seat in front of me. low and behold next thing i know i'm sitting in a restroom in milan airport looking for an important envelope..on the flight someone had stolen an envelope from my back pack. the only thing valuable was a train ticket, overnight, from milan to barcelona. had to pay for another one.anyways no trouble ANYWHERE. but in san sebastian you could walk around with hundred dollar bills sticking out of your pockets and have no trouble. you just walk into a tapas bar order a beer, eat as much as you can then YOU tell the bartender what YOU had. trust breeds honesty. it was a shockingly nice experience

Thank you for posting a message regarding some of the problems you and your wife encountered in Italy, in the hope to caution future visitors about the kinds of trickery they may encounter there. You are obviously getting a very mixed response. Don't feel bad; you can't please everybody. My brother had a bad experience there, himself. He lost his camcorder at the airport. Italy is one of the countries my husband and I will be visiting this September. Needless to say that, complacent is not what we are going to be in Italy.

There's no doubt in my mind that Rome has a major pickpocket problem, moreso than any US city that I've been in. In major US cities I take more recautions than normal and I've never had a problem. My 2nd visit to Rome I took was extremely careful of my wallet and passport .. in a camera bag around my next, next to my chest. And yet, on a subway, I looked down and saw the bag unzippered and a hand inside the bag right next to my wallet. Big shock! Especially since I was very continuously vigilant. Boy was I loud. Luckily I didn't lose anything. In 1 or 2 seconds I would have had my vacation ruined. There were 2 of them. One very large manuvered in front of me to hide the view. I was standing, crouded subway. The smaller guy just got close to my side. My back was to the wall and noone was to my left so I just had to concentrate to my front and right. Still they got so close. Both looked like ok people, not slimy looking like those at the train station. My family, 3 teenages and wife have a very low opinion of the folks in Rome. In fact in most of Italy. Sound like we're biased? Yes it's hard not too after seeing this. Throughout Rome and Pompeii we've never felt that you could trust the folks around you. After the subway stopped, a nun, who was on the Subway thanked me for being so vocal about these too. She had see this many times. The previous week a distraught old man on the subway lost his wallet. P.S., I didn't get the feeling that if he got my wallet that anyone would assist me if I got into a skuffle. P.S., you don't know how good it is to be in the US and not have to be so parinoid as we were in Rome. By the way, I'm 6'2", about 220# and am not a pushover but they still went for my wallet.

Jay Frank: <BR>Are you kidding? Unless I grievously misunderstand you, I must reply that the pizza in Rome (both in trattorie and pizze rustiche) is BY FAR the best I have EVER had ANYWHERE. <BR> <BR>As far as the crime goes, jeez, people, grow up. Anywhere you go that is different from what you are used to may have some drawbacks. There are people preying on other people in every large city in the world. At the risk of being repetitive, try not to look like a lost and dithering tourist and you'll be fine. I live in New York, but even when I first moved here, I knew better than to LOOK like I didn't know where I was going even if I DIDN'T know where I was going. Etc., etc.

We have had the same experiences in all 3 cases. The train station in Rome has a very well-organised theft ring involving of almost every person loitering tin the park in front of the station. I twisted an ankle to foil a group on five who had thier eyes set on my husband's leather briefcase. The gypsies in other popular tourist sites were even worse. Having lived here for ten years, I have come tp accept that thieving and cheating are valid, well- accepted occupations here. It is the most frustrating aspect of this country.