After reading so much wonderful advice on this site I have planned the following itinerary for a 12 day trip to the Italian Lakes region and Switzerland. The only thing I have purchased so far are the plane tickets. We arrive in Malpensa on June 8 at 7:55AM and depart from Malpensa at 10:30AM on June 20. Everything else is still flexible. I am travelling with my husband and my parents and we visited Venice, Florence and Rome on our last trip. Any input or advice would be greatly appreciated!

June 8 - Arrive Malpensa, bus to Milan
June 10 - Rent car from Milan or Malpensa and drive to Geneva
June 13 - Drive to Luzern area
June 16 - Drive to Como (drop off Car on 17 June)stay in Varenna
June 19 - Travel to Malpensa and stay overnight for departure June 20.

Thank you!

Hello 2mcqs,

I think this sounds like a great trip, and I think your family will have a fabulous time!

I have two changes to suggest, though, if you're in the mood to entertain some other options.

First, I'm one of those here at Fodors who prefers the trains, especially when travelling in Switzerland. The trains are very efficient and easy to use, and it's so much more enjoyable to watch the scenery while enjoying some food & wine than driving through it! I also believe that you won't need a car at all in Switzerland -- both Luzern and Geneva are best seen on foot or by ferry!

Just on a hunch, I played with the Swiss rail website (www.rail.ch) and found that there is a direct train from Milan to Geneva; you can leave Milan at 9.10 and arrive in Geneva at 13.42 or leave Milan at 11.20 and arrive at 15.42. And imagine spending that time walking around, sipping coffee, munching on cheese & chocolate -- instead of whizzing by as you dodge traffic.

The connection from Geneva to Luzern is also easy -- and you can take the five-hour scenic Golden Pass through the mountains or the three-hour regular route via Lausanne.

Returning to Varenna is also very easy. There's a direct connection leaving Luzern at 10.23, arriving in Como at 13.53, where you can catch a ferry to Varenna.

If you think you'd like to consider this, we can get an approximate cost figure for you; remember that the Swiss rail system has a 15% discount for two people travelling together (and they may even have a senior discount too).

My second suggestion is to stay in one of the smaller towns on Lake Geneva instead of the city itself. The towns of Vevey or Montreux offer spectacular scenery, great dining, and pleasant lakeside strolls without the noise & traffic of a city. I have a looong list of things to do in Montreux if you'd be interested in that.

I hope you get lots of information here!

s

Why Geneva? There are several better options much closer. If I had your time and connections I would do 3 destinations--Berner Oberland, Luzern, and Lago Maggiore/Orta or Como, depending on takeoff time at MLP.

I'll weigh in on the side of the rail portion since I also prefer train travel in Switzerland and there aren't many places you cannot get to. The trains are fast, efficient, frequent, and the stations are easy to navigate through. Lucerne is quite wonderful (and a lot of folks here seem to prefer it over Geneva) but then so are spots in the Alps.

You could also take a Cisalpino train back to Milano and change for the 1 1/2 hour trip to Varenna. Lots of options and hope you'll get some useful help in subsequent posts.

I agree wholeheartedly with Swanday and others: train travel is the best way to see Switzerland. A couple of years ago we rented a car at Malpensa, drove it to Stressa where we stayed a couple of days and then on to a family reunion in Lauften (just south of Basel). The car brokedown in Lauften and was not replaced. So for the remainder of our stay, we were forced to take trains for sightseeing and returning to Malpensa and never regretted a moment of it. Especially in Lucerne for instance where cars are not normally allowed in the historic central district where we stayed.

Have a great trip and if you get to Emmenthal make sure you go to the cheese factory for a tour and lunch.

Thank you for all of the suggestions! We are definitely open to changing things around. The reasons we were thinking of the car option are as follows 1)flexibility to stop along the way 2)cheaper than what it appeared the trains will cost 3)my husband loves to drive. That said, we have never done this trip and driving just may not be the smartest thing to do.

S- If you would be willing to estimate the trip costs to see if I came close I would be most grateful. We have 2 adults and 2 seniors. My estimate of the train cost came in at around $1,000 vs $500 to rent a car for 7 days (I don't have a clue how much to add for gas,tolls and parking).

I have read that the Geneva area is lovely and I think my Mother would like to say she's been there. We are not locked into staying in Geneva itself and the Montreux idea sounds like a good one.

Bob - do you think we are trying to do too much or spending too much time in the Geneva area? Also my ignorance of Switzerland will now be revealed...what is the difference between the Berner Oberland and the Luzern area (Wengen, Murren). I thought we could stay in Luzern and take day trips to the smaller towns?

The Geneva area is the only part of Switzerland I can speak to. I visit a dear friend who lives there. Lausanne, Vevey, and Montreux (coming out from Geneva along the lake) are all lovely towns. And the Lavaux (sp?) wine region is famous for good reason.

Chateau de Chillon just past Montreux is a fantastic OLD castle to visit. And if the timing happens to be right, go to Vevey early on a Saturday AM to the weekly farmers market held in the town square. It is fabulous, colorful, local, and you can't get more authentic that this!

Hello 2mcqs,

I plugged your basic itinerary into the calculator at www.railsaver.com. It suggested the three-day Swiss Saver Flexi-Pass (in 2nd class) at $132 each. I checked the Swiss rail website and confirmed that this pass is 196 chf each, which is more than the railsaver price (Iym sure the railsaver folks will adjust their prices by currency rates). I would guess youyd end up paying about $150 each for the pass.

I also priced out your itinerary for point-to-point tickets as a comparison, and it came out pretty close to your estimate, 1000 chf or about $750. Looks like you guys would benefit from the pass -- if you decided to take the trains. Of course, you would have to pay the extra fares between Italy and the Swiss border, and the taxi service to the hotels would also add up. Naturally if your husband *likes* to drive, that is an incalculable benefit for driving -- I just donyt!!

I didn't find any special discount for seniors -- darn!! Maybe someone else out there will know of one.

Here is my kind of long list of activities for Lake Geneva, based in Montreux:

Spend a morning walking along the 11km flowered lakeside promenade from Clarens to Villeneuve, passing the Chateau de Chillon between Territet and Villeneuve; be sure to stop at one of the many cafes along the promenade to have a coffee & snack.
My favorite cafy is the Terraces du Pavillon in Territet, across from the little dock there, just about 1/4 mile before Chillon. A great restaurant if youyre in the mood for a full meal is the Taverne de Chateau de Chillon about a block before Chillon but not on the lakefront. Take the ferry back to Montreux.

Spend a morning walking up to Montreux's old city and the old church for fantastic panoramic views from the churchys terrace. Have lunch at the Hotel/Restaurant du Pont at 12 rue du Pont (I had a ravioli in cream sauce with shaved truffles that was out of this world!).

Spend the morning in Vevey hunting down antique shops in the old town. Then have lunch at the Hostellerie de Geneve on the Pl. Marche.

Take the train (the ywine trainy) from Vevey to Chexbres, then walk the vineyards down to the lake, hitting Rivaz & St. Saphorin. For lunch, find the Auberge du Rivaz with a terrace lake view or see if any of the cellars are having a wine tasting.

Cully (esp. the Auberge du Raisin) and Lutry's well-posted tour of ancient sites are worth a trip as well.

Spend a day in the mountains, taking the train to the resort of Gstaad. On the way back, stop at Chateaux d'Oex or at Glion for lunch at the Hotel Victoria with its panoramic views of the lake. You can walk from Glion to Montreux on a stair-step path through the forest (or take the train or the funicular to Territet).

Spend an afternoon in the medieval village of Gruyeres, making sure to sample the berries in creme-double.

Spend an afteroon in Nyon at the Roman museum and the Caesar's columns nearby. The Fodors guide recommends a meal at the Auberge du Chateau just steps from the Roman museum. It was closed when I was there, but it looked charming.

Go to the small, charming village of Celigny. Not much to see here but a picturesque place (it was actor Richard Burtonys home during the last years of his life). Have lunch at the Auberge du Soleil -- great prix fixe feast!

Here are some websites:
www.montreux.ch (find their picture gallery)
www.vevey.ch
www.lake-geneva-region.ch
www.gruyeres.ch
www.nyon.ch
www. lutry.ch
www.lavaux.ch/sentier2.htm
www.hospvd.ch/public/eccmid/lavaux.html
www.rail.ch (go to yTravel/Timetablesy for schedules; go to yGuests from Abroady and then ySwiss Travel Systemy for pass information)

My personal travel journal (w/photos) of Montreux
http://www.igougo.com/planning/journ...JournalID=7825

Hope some of this helps!

s

Hello 2mcqs,

For a serious calculation you should include the day trips.

For the two days on Lake Geneva (Montreux as recommended base) I suggest to do 1) a ferry trip to Geneva, do some sightseeing there and back by train and 2) a cog-wheel railway trip to Rochers-de-Naye and a visit of castle Chillon.

In Lucerne I recommend to do 1) the yGolden Round Tripy to Mt. Pilatus and 2) a day trip to the Bernese Alps with a trip to Kleine Scheidegg by mountain railway.

Here are my calculationsy results:

With 8-consecutive-days Swiss Pass: 289 for the Swiss Pass and 141 for the fares on day trips = 430 Sfr. (per person, plus fares for Italian trains, approx. 40 SFr.)

With Swiss Half Fare Card (SHFC): 99 Sfr. for the SHFC + 81 SFr. for the trains Swiss Border y Montreux, Montreux y Lucerne, Lucerne y Swiss Border + 187,60 Sfr. for the day trips = 367,60 Sfr. (plus fares for Italian trains, approx. 40 Sfr.)

With car: 700 Sfr. rental costs + 40 Sfr. sticker for Swiss motorways + 160 Sfr. for gas (1000 km) = 900 SFr. = 225 Sfr. per person
+ 215,40 SFr. for day trips (I calculated you drive Lucerne y Grindelwald and do a round trip by gondola + mountain railway Mynnlichen-Kleine Scheidegg and I calculated you drive to Geneva, so you would miss the fantastic boat trip.)
= 440,40 Sfr. per person (plus parking plus toll for Italian motorways)

It is obviously cheaper to travel by train, purchasing a Swiss Half Fare Card. From my experience driving and parking in cities is a hassle. And you miss the boat ride (paddle steamer) on Lake Geneva when driving. On the other hand, driving via Simplon and Gotthard passes is a wonderful experience as well (weather?). Itys your decision y

I will leave the car versus train details to others. I just cannot imagine going to CH and not seeing the best of the Alps--and that is the Berner Oberland. It is too far from Luzern--which is also a very excellent destination. I would stay in Grindelwald or Wengen to explore the BO, and it demands 3 days or more. I do not know the French area well, but why go so far and miss the best of the Alps

Good morning all and hello, 2mcqs. Here are some thoughts of my own. First, picture yourself doing this. Does traffic or toll roads or winding mountain roads or pain-in-the-neck parking at the more popular destinations cause you to shudder? Then do consider the SwissSaverPass and use the wonderful trains and buses and boats of Switzerland. (I cannot imagine myself traveling any other way.)

On the other hand, training means you have to select your hotels w/in easy walking distance of the station or use trams or taxis, and none of us at this thread knows how your parents will feel about grabbing a suitcase and walking to a hotel (or figure a taxi budget into your railpass cost). (If I'm imagining your parents to be older or frailer than they are, just forget everything I've just written.) Also, training means your schedule must match that of public transportation and requires a bit more planning. By the way, has anyone figured the cost comparison in first class? Again, you need to imagine the comfort level you prefer, and also remember that trains are more crowded in second class.

Well, whatever mode you choose, please do allow time for a boatride on both the lakes (Geneva's and Lucerne's). They are spectacular ways to become absolutely enchanted w/Switzerland. It was my first sight of the Lavaux villages and Chillon that captured my heart.

I notice that Ingo includes a day trip from Lucerne to the Berner Oberland, so I'm assuming that he knows it is possible. But again let me throw in another memory of my own. It is entirely possible to stay in lovely small hotels on Lac Leman(yes to S's suggestion re Montreux) and Lake Lucerne (not the full name) and daytrip to your heart's content for a magical trip without ever setting foot in Grindelwald, Wengen, or Murren. I promise; I've done it. There are gorgeous mountain views to be had in many parts of Switzerland, and there is more to Switzerland than mountaintops. So there, I've said the unforgivable. And I've probably used up my space. Your itinerary outline is perfect for a first visit -- Trust me, you'll be back. J.