Monica Richards

My husband and I are planning a trip to Southern Spain and Portugal for a little over two weeks in late September/ early October. Neither one of us has ever been to these areas, nor do we know anyone who has, so all of our information so far has come from guidebooks. We have our first pass at an itinerary, and would like to know your input. Some specifics: we are flying in and out of Lisbon, we will have a car, we prefer to absorb the culture, etc. rather than rush through and see a bunch of sights, and my husband isn't particularly fond of long car trips. Here's the itinerary: <BR> <BR>Portugal: <BR>Lisbon 3 days, 3 nights (3rd day in Sintra) <BR>Nazare 1 day <BR>Coimbra 1 night, 1 day <BR>Marvao 2 nights, 1 day <BR>Spain: <BR>Cordoba 2 nights 2 days <BR>Granada 2 nights 2 days <BR>Arcos (hill towns) 2 nights, 2 days <BR>Seville 2 nights 2 days <BR>Evora 1 night 1 day <BR>Portugal: <BR>Cascais (on the coast) 2 nights <BR> <BR>I realize we have skipped both the Algarve and the Costa del Sol--reason being that neither one of us is too hip on the highrise/ crowd thing, and I burn to a crisp if I so much as step foot on a beach. <BR> <BR>Anyhow, we are hoping for input on whether we have broken up our time well, or if we should spend more time in one place, less in another, etc. Obviously we will only be seeing parts of both countries, but we figure we'll be back to see the rest! <BR>

michael baldwin

If you truly prefer to "absorb the culture," and not rush to-and-fro, this itinerary sounds like a bit much to me. <BR> <BR>I'm assuming that you're flying from the US. If so, remember that your first day is going to be pretty much shot due to jetlag -- you'll be struggling just to stay awake, probably. The second day, you'll be about 75 percent of normal. <BR> <BR>That said, you've pretty much just done a sleepwalk through Lisbon. I've heard that's a pretty dynamite city. <BR> <BR>Also, the one-day, one-town thing can be tiring (depending on how much driving). Why not cut a few town out? Why not just concentrate on Portugal? Or Spain? <BR> <BR>I know it's very tempting to try to do everything you want, but if you're really looking to absorb the culture, a day here and a day there is no way to do it. <BR> <BR>I'm going to Spain this summer myself (16 days). I'm definitely an "absorb the culture" kind of guy. <BR> <BR>My itinerary: <BR>Fly into Barcelona, spend 4 days <BR>Train (one hour) to Sitges, a smallish, charming resort town on the beach, 6 days. <BR>Back to Barcelona, 6 days. <BR> <BR>This way, I'll have the time to develop favorite places and get a feel for the rhythm and flow of the area. <BR> <BR>My thoughts, anyway.

michael baldwin

If you truly prefer to "absorb the culture," and not rush to-and-fro, this itinerary sounds like a bit much to me. <BR> <BR>I'm assuming that you're flying from the US. If so, remember that your first day is going to be pretty much shot due to jetlag -- you'll be struggling just to stay awake, probably. The second day, you'll be about 75 percent of normal. <BR> <BR>That said, you've pretty much just done a sleepwalk through Lisbon. I've heard that's a pretty dynamite city. <BR> <BR>Also, the one-day, one-town thing can be tiring (depending on how much driving). Why not cut a few town out? Why not just concentrate on Portugal? Or Spain? <BR> <BR>I know it's very tempting to try to do everything you want, but if you're really looking to absorb the culture, a day here and a day there is no way to do it. <BR> <BR>I'm going to Spain this summer myself (16 days). I'm definitely an "absorb the culture" kind of guy. <BR> <BR>My itinerary: <BR>Fly into Barcelona, spend 4 days <BR>Train (one hour) to Sitges, a smallish, charming resort town on the beach, 6 days. <BR>Back to Barcelona, 6 days. <BR> <BR>This way, I'll have the time to develop favorite places and get a feel for the rhythm and flow of the area. <BR> <BR>My thoughts, anyway.

Monica Richards

Looking on a map, it seems that the towns we picked were quite close together for the most part, so whereas it looks like we are bouncing around a lot, there's only an hour or two of driving. Anyone had experience with this? Is my assumption correct? <BR> <BR>And because we fly from San Francisco, we actually arrive in Lisbon in the evening, so I am not counting that as one of the days.

John

Hi, Monica, <BR>We've been to most but not all of the places you mention, and have a few comments. <BR>First, of course, much depends on your personal tastes and touring style. You certainly can do the one-day approach for your itinerary and cover the ground. The trade-off is the depth of the experience. All of the destinations you list are worth weeks, of course, not just days or hours. <BR>Anyway, a few specific observations: <BR>1. Driving in Portugal is really horrible; by far the worst (most aggressive, inept drivers) I've encountered in western (or most of eastern) Europe. The guides we saw all said this, and we thought, pshaw, how bad can it be? Well... So if you can limit your automotive excursions, or use common carriers, I think you'll be more relaxed and happier as a result. This is especially true in and around Lisbon and Sintra/Cascais (really suburbs), which is basically a regional traffic jam, albeit frequently a fast-moving and hair-raising one. <BR>2. We found rural Portugal, especially the Alentejo region east of Lisbon (and even east of Evora) a drop-dead fascinating, beautiful and want-to-go-back experience. As a Californian you’ll likely be blown away by endless Eucalyptus forests (with stork nests) and a very California-ish gold and green landscape, except with whitewashed hill villages and prehistoric stone circles. There are some fine Pousadas and country inns in the region, which is not heavily tourist-impacted. The car is a benefit there; this is big sky country and very un-European feeling at times. <BR>3. Seville is a city to be explored and relished, and also one where your car needs to be put some place safe and left alone. This goes in general for short-stay destinations: by the time you’ve driven from your last stop, navigated narrow medieval streets with no good signage, found your hotel and disposed of car and bags, almost all of the day (and if you’re like us your nerves) are shot, and a nap and room service (or similar low-energy solution) seems awfully attractive. But Spain in general, and Andalusia in particular, is a late-night, high-energy place, where midnight is as lively as mid-day, and not to be missed. So don’t wear yourselves out in transit…the Alcazar, Mezquita, Alhambra…they’ve all been there hundreds of years, and are unlikely to change much before your next visit. So my suggestion is walk the streets, sit and eat ice cream at the (forget the name) legendary café on the main square, listen to Carmen on the Walkman and look at the ex-cigar factory in the flesh, savor it. <BR>Happy trails.

Monica Richards

John: <BR> <BR>Do you have a feel for which of the towns we should eliminate and where we could stay longer? Like I said, this is the first pass at an itinerary, and for one thing I didn't know the driving was bad in Portugal (I've heard it described as good!). <BR> <BR>Also, as an aside, we Californians get sick of the golden hills. Give me lush green countryside (sans eucalyptus is fine) anyday!

Monica Richards

I just reread your message, John, and thought of another thing. Usually when we travel we use the train or whatever mass transportation is available--we don't like the stress of driving. However, we had heard that there are no good public transportation options in Portugal. Is this not true? In any event, we would only be using the car to get to a destination and then hoofing it or taking a bus or whatnot from there.

John

Hi again, <BR>It's quite personal, of course, but in view of your limited time, I would certainly suggest smaller destinations and countryside in Portugal and big cities in Spain, not so much both in both countries. Seville is wonderful; we only saw the historic monuments in Cordoba (Mezquita un-be-lievable, ditto the Cathederal

John

(Geez, hair trigger mouse. Sorry for premature conclusion...) <BR>...in the limited time there, but very impressive nonetheless.) In Portugal, we found Cascais to be surprisingly grimy and traffic-y; Sintra heavily impacted by tourism but worth the effort; similarly Evora. With a car, though, the countryside all around Evora is amazing - we have to recommend Monsaraz (Horta do Mauro inn near there is one of the most romantic places we've ever stayed), Elvas on the Spanish border (Elvas IS alive), and just bopping around in the car, stopping at villages, walks in the cork woods, it's great. After that, tapas in Seville and sherry, sherry.. OK, we're ready to leave again. <BR>I understand inter-city bus service in Portugal is good but have no experience with Portugese busses except omigod they're in my lane. <BR>I'll let others disagree or offer their suggestions. You'll have a great time wherever you choose. <BR>PS Hope you like Codfish. <BR>

mwg

You basically have a fine itinerary, although I do think its a little rushed. One thing to bear in mind was the previous comment that Portuguese driving leaves a lot to be desired. They do seem rather inept. Despite this, there are many beautiful roads. It just tends to be pretty slow. I would cut out the trip to Coimbra and instead tag the night onto Evora or elsewhere. To go to coimbra, you'd be heading north to then turn and head east. The University is interesting but I cannot say that it is a must see. The Alentejo is very interesting, a plethora of fortified hill towns, often with nice pousadas. Seville has much more to offer than Cordoba. Cordoba has a magnificent mosque, partly converted into a church. It is truly fascinating and well worth seeing but there is really little else to see. Granada has the alhambra, which is fantastic, but Seville is a much more vibrant city, with many places to see and a much livier night life.<BR>Rather than going to Coimbra, perhaps you might want to see the magnificent Manueline monastary at Batalha or the church (cathedral?) at Alcobaca. You could do the trip you originally envisioned and have a fine time but it would probably be beter to spend a little more time in some places. good luck.

Monica Richards

Thanks everyone. Okay, so here is the second pass: <BR>Portugal: <BR>Lisbon 3 days, 3 nights (3rd in Sintra) <BR>Nazare, one day <BR>Marvao, 2 nights, one day <BR>Spain: <BR>Cordoba 2 nights, 2 days <BR>Granada 2 nights, 2 days <BR>Arcos 2 nights, 2 days <BR>Sevilla 3 nights, 3 days <BR>Evora 2 nights, 2 days <BR>Portugal: <BR>Cascais 2 nights <BR>home <BR> <BR>Would you switch any other days around? <BR>

Cheryl Z.

<BR>Once you get there, be flexible in your itinerary because you just might want to stay longer in one place or skip a place altogether having found something else along the way that intrigued you. That's how we ended up in Cascais which we loved. While the driving/parking is certainly an experience we didn't find it any worse than Italy. Just be prepared! I think your itinerary is fine for your length of time. Would agree that Lisbon is worth more time but sometimes you can't do/see everything your first trip to a country.

mwg

Sounds fine to me. If (as I understand it) you will be going from Nazare to Marvao, you should stop and see Batalha. It's a church with some of the best Manueline details. Also you would pass by Tomar, which I never visited but which also has great architecture. Batalha would be an easy stop. Also, the area on the way to Nazare has some of the best pottery. Caldas de Reina is famous for its pottery. You will not find equally beautiful pottery (in my opinion) in other areas. Have a great trip.

Maria

Monica, I do not know anything about Portugal but for the Spain portion of your trip I would suggest the following: My husband and I were in Spain for 2 weeks last fall and our thoughts are as follows: Seville is totally incredible and your 2 days and 2 nights is a minimum. Sights to see are the Cathedral, Royal Palaces (Reales Alcazares), Casa de Pilatos, Plaza de Espana, Parque de Luisa, Basilica de la Macarena, among many others. Most important to just stroll the streets in the old city and soak in the sights and sense of the place. I would add another day and night. Arcos de la Frontera is a neat town but 2 days and nights are overkill...4 hours (1/2 day are plenty!), Ronda is a great town and with a lot more to see than Arcos...add a day and a night. Cordoba is beautiful but basically has only the Mosque as the old city La Juderia is very small...1 day and 1 night is plenty. Do not use a car in Sevilla, Cordoba or Granada as they are all choked with traffic and the parts of the city you want to visit are almost unnavigable except on foot. Spend at least a day or 2 driving outside of towns in The White towns... we found pueblos like El Burgo, Grazalema, El Bosque, beautiful and scenic. Also between Granada and Cordoba are two amazing Medieval towns called Baeza and Ubeda that we were totally taken by and can be enjoyed together in a day. If you can splurge a little, do not miss the Parador system of Spain. Except for a few of the most popular ones (the Alhambra is one) these hotels and restaurants are an amazing value where you are staying in fully renovated 15th century castles,etc..and dining on incredible regional cuisine for the cost of a moderate hotel or restaurant. I will be happy to share more detailed hotel, dining info if you want more help...Viva Espana!

Monica Richards

Maria, thanks for your input. We actually did add one more day and night to Seville. We were under the impression that Arcos was a good base from which to see the hill towns like Rhonda--would you recommend staying in Rhonda instead? We are looking to splurge a bit on accomodations, and I have a book on the Pousadas and Paradors of Portugal and Spain. However, it's a bit overwhelming. It would be great if you could let me know where you stayed.

cp

Monica- <BR>Here's my take on the Spain part of your trip: <BR> <BR>Cordoba is really not an interesting town. The mosque and small Jewish quarter can easily be seen in one day. I would do this as a day trip. <BR>This leaves you with a day to do something else with. Add it to the hill towns or to Sevilla and you won't be disappointed. <BR> <BR>Ronda is a delightful little burg. I was there in May, not September, but I recall my visit there as one of the high points from my 6 mo sojourn in Andalucia. <BR> <BR>I completely concur with Maria, her tips are very sound.

mwg

I really don't think you can go very wrong on any of the pousadas/paradors. I stayed in the parador in Evora, which was in a former monastery(convent?) and was very nice. I also stayed in one in Avila, which you're not visiting, but it too was very nice. You really can't go wrong, if you can still book them. I know that the Portuguese tourist office also has some type of booklet on historic properties that accept guests and they looked very interesting and not too expensive.

Graziella

Hi Monica, after reading all the advises for your Spanish itinerary my advise <BR>is now that you read all the e mails, do what you wish to do. <BR>n Spanish we say" Sobre gustos no hay nada escrito", so for instance I read that someone said that Cordoba is worth only one side visit, and I love Cordoba <BR>I love its long and rich history ,....la Mezquita is fantastic, "El Caballo Rojo" is an outstanding restaurant ... we are all right and no one is right. <BR>So get a good travel book, read once more all the e mails and again go where you would like to go . Buen viaje. <BR> <BR>

itinerary

Other nice towns are Carmona (necropolis, plazas, and the town walls) Ejercita (plazas and spires), Medina Sidonia and Vejer but these two would be south and east of your planned trip. Take time to stop at ventas to eat. These mom and pop places mainly may have only tapas and bocadillos (sandwiches) but they can have marinated zanhorias (carrots) and other things. Jamon Serrano is divine. The caves of Aracena are interesting. But that's it for Aracena except the scenery and a Knights Templar church. Look for Roman roads for hiking. Caves of Pilates outside of Ronda are excellent. <BR>Archivos de Indies next to Sevilla's catedral can have interesting exhibits. The research room is fascinating but that takes time and lots of letters to get into. And many, many rules. <BR>October can be time for harvest ferias (vendimas) with blessing of grapes. Go to Italica outside of Sevilla (a Roman Veterans Administration town) <BR>In Ronda, the hike down the gorge could be inviting but the hike up is killer. Outside of Ronda are remains of aquaduct. Museo de Toreros in Ronda also very good as is spending time in gardens and on the paseo along the gorge.

susan mador

And in the cathedral in Sevilla, legend says that rubbing the foot of the bearer of Columbus' tomb will bring you back to Sevilla. I think it's the one showing conquering of Cordoba (pomegranate is speared on stick) look for the one with very shiny shoes. <BR>It's worked for me four times.