Ireland is about to ban smoking in pubs. You think it'll fly?
Aug 13th, 2003, 07:40 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
I hope the smoking ban works! It's not the smoking I mind so much, as I used to smoke when I was in my foolish 20s and have great understanding of how difficult it is to kick the habit--but stale smoke!!!! That's what stinks. Some of the pubs in Ireland and the UK positively reek. It's much, much better than it was a decade ago, but I can't tell you the picturesque pubs we have passed up because they were plain old smelly.
Aug 13th, 2003, 07:43 AM
#22
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I talked with a lot of people in Ireland this summer about whether or not they thought the ban would work. Most said they thought it would probably be enforced in the larger towns at pubs that catered to tourists. I didn't meet anyone who thought it would be enforced in Ireland's small, more rural pubs. I should mention that I had these conversations in pubs, and often with people who were smoking. Probably not quite a scientific sampling of opinion.
Aug 13th, 2003, 07:53 AM
#23
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bigchiefally
I thought I was the only one on this site from N Ireland, so it's nice to meet you! I'm from Armagh, but travel to Belfast regularly for the shopping! Isn't this weather we're having fabulous?
Have a good day!
Angela
I thought I was the only one on this site from N Ireland, so it's nice to meet you! I'm from Armagh, but travel to Belfast regularly for the shopping! Isn't this weather we're having fabulous?
Have a good day!
Angela
Aug 13th, 2003, 08:18 AM
#24
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: <i>Apparently, it's only tobacco smoke that's bad.</i>
Ira, I suspect that 99+ percent of people in favor of smoking bans in office buildings, airplanes, bars, and restaurants would be in favor of banning ALL type of smoking.
This is not about banning the smoking of tobacco, per se. I'd never be in favor of that and I am not aware of any non-smoker who is. In my opinion, people should be free to pursue unhealthy lifestyle choices as long as their choices do not affect others; THAT is the issue with these smoking-in-certain-places bans.
What's fascinating to me is that I suspect there are many tobacco smokers who would whine about banning smoking in bars and restaurants who would turn around and support not only a TOTAL ban -- but prison sentences -- for people who prefer to smoke another substance. To me, that is hypocrisy of the highest order.
Ira, I suspect that 99+ percent of people in favor of smoking bans in office buildings, airplanes, bars, and restaurants would be in favor of banning ALL type of smoking.
This is not about banning the smoking of tobacco, per se. I'd never be in favor of that and I am not aware of any non-smoker who is. In my opinion, people should be free to pursue unhealthy lifestyle choices as long as their choices do not affect others; THAT is the issue with these smoking-in-certain-places bans.
What's fascinating to me is that I suspect there are many tobacco smokers who would whine about banning smoking in bars and restaurants who would turn around and support not only a TOTAL ban -- but prison sentences -- for people who prefer to smoke another substance. To me, that is hypocrisy of the highest order.
Aug 13th, 2003, 08:25 AM
#25
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack, not only is the impending ban in Ireland true (read the NY Times article at the link above) but, as the article also notes...
"Two other countries ? Norway and the Netherlands ? have approved prohibitions on smoking in bars and restaurants. Norway's will take effect in the spring; the Netherlands, which is in a furor over the law, will put its ban in place in 2005."
Resistance certainly isn't futile, but as someone in the NY Times article noted momentum is (finally) on the side of non-smokers.
"Two other countries ? Norway and the Netherlands ? have approved prohibitions on smoking in bars and restaurants. Norway's will take effect in the spring; the Netherlands, which is in a furor over the law, will put its ban in place in 2005."
Resistance certainly isn't futile, but as someone in the NY Times article noted momentum is (finally) on the side of non-smokers.
Aug 13th, 2003, 08:47 AM
#26
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be interesting to see the economic impact. In my hometown, they have banned smoking in bars and restaurants. What they have found (what they should have known) is that heavy drinkers are also heavy smokers. Bars depend on the heavy, regular drinkers for the majority of their business, not the casual drinkers. The loss of business from heavy drinkers deciding to drink (and smoke) at home instead is not nearly made up by new drinkers who like a smoke free environment.
Whether this is the case in Ireland I don't know, but I guess that it is the same over there and that if they are truly an independent country (and not part of a greater europe), they will make a way for businesses to be exempt if they can show hardship. A neighboring town did this and it is working quite well.
Whether this is the case in Ireland I don't know, but I guess that it is the same over there and that if they are truly an independent country (and not part of a greater europe), they will make a way for businesses to be exempt if they can show hardship. A neighboring town did this and it is working quite well.
Aug 13th, 2003, 08:49 AM
#27
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,766
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was in a Pub in Ireland invited by an Irishman and two Germans (no I'm not trying to tell a joke here). The Irishman offered me a cig from his pack and I said no thank you, I don't smoke. I was amazed when he asked me "Why don't you smoke?" He seemed so confused about why I didn't smoke. It was as if I was in the pub and I didn't drink beer!
I think smoking in Irland/Europe in general is a part of their culture, and I am so glad that it is not that way in America. This is one area where we excell over Europeans. There are other ways they excell over us.
I think smoking in Irland/Europe in general is a part of their culture, and I am so glad that it is not that way in America. This is one area where we excell over Europeans. There are other ways they excell over us.
Aug 13th, 2003, 09:11 AM
#28
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: <i>This is one area where we excel over Europeans. There are other ways they excel over us.</i>
I agree, Jor. An example of one way I feel European countries are <i>ahead</i> of the U.S. when it comes to "vice policy" is how many countries have moved -- or are moving -- in the direction of treating personal drug usage (other than nicotine and alcohol, that is) as a health issue, not a criminal one. In the U.S. we have <i>still</i> have not learned the lesson that the miserable failure of Prohibition tried to teach us, that criminalizing personal vices leads to a thriving black market, property crime, and violence.
I agree, Jor. An example of one way I feel European countries are <i>ahead</i> of the U.S. when it comes to "vice policy" is how many countries have moved -- or are moving -- in the direction of treating personal drug usage (other than nicotine and alcohol, that is) as a health issue, not a criminal one. In the U.S. we have <i>still</i> have not learned the lesson that the miserable failure of Prohibition tried to teach us, that criminalizing personal vices leads to a thriving black market, property crime, and violence.
Aug 13th, 2003, 09:32 AM
#29
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I couldn?t possibly care less whether or not people choose to smoke. However, until tobacco products are made illegal I think the bans are relatively pointless and, in the case of not being able to smoke but being able to ingest as much alcohol as one wants before staggering (or driving) home is pretty hypocritical. Personally, I?ve never confused a pub with a gym or a daycare center.
There is also something of a witch-hunt mentality at work here. The technology has been around for years that will completely clean the air in a pub and/or restaurant in short order. There are any number of machines out there that will filter and ionize the air to a pristine condition in seconds or minutes.
In a practical world owners would be given a choice to either ban smoking or to bite the financial bullet and install TWICE the recommended smoke-eaters as required. Monthly inspections of the machines making sure that they?re operating up to code could be included with the standard health inspections. Violations or below code filters could be heavily fined or even closed for a few days.
This however would not placate the holier-than-thou sort of you who would resent seeing someone enjoying smoking a cigar or cigarette whether or not it affects you personally. The great American Puritan ethic dictates being resentful and bothered just to know that someone, somewhere, is enjoying themselves doing something you disapprove of. I'm surprised that many of you would even enter into a den of inequity which serves spirits in the first place.
Not all of you, of course, but far more than those likely to admit it.
There is also something of a witch-hunt mentality at work here. The technology has been around for years that will completely clean the air in a pub and/or restaurant in short order. There are any number of machines out there that will filter and ionize the air to a pristine condition in seconds or minutes.
In a practical world owners would be given a choice to either ban smoking or to bite the financial bullet and install TWICE the recommended smoke-eaters as required. Monthly inspections of the machines making sure that they?re operating up to code could be included with the standard health inspections. Violations or below code filters could be heavily fined or even closed for a few days.
This however would not placate the holier-than-thou sort of you who would resent seeing someone enjoying smoking a cigar or cigarette whether or not it affects you personally. The great American Puritan ethic dictates being resentful and bothered just to know that someone, somewhere, is enjoying themselves doing something you disapprove of. I'm surprised that many of you would even enter into a den of inequity which serves spirits in the first place.
Not all of you, of course, but far more than those likely to admit it.
Aug 13th, 2003, 09:43 AM
#30
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: <i>The great American Puritan ethic dictates being resentful and bothered just to know that someone, somewhere, is enjoying themselves doing something you disapprove of.</i>
Very true. It's why states passed anti-sodomy laws. It's why soliciting consensual sex for money is illegal. It's why a person cannot legally smoke non-tobacco leaves in the privacy of their own home.
Tobacco smokers can at least enjoy their vice in many places without fear of being arrested and thrown into prison.
Very true. It's why states passed anti-sodomy laws. It's why soliciting consensual sex for money is illegal. It's why a person cannot legally smoke non-tobacco leaves in the privacy of their own home.
Tobacco smokers can at least enjoy their vice in many places without fear of being arrested and thrown into prison.
Aug 13th, 2003, 10:02 AM
#31
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said DiAblo!
"Personally, I've never confused a pub with a gym or a daycare center".
Exactly on point! Who goes to a pub to get healthy???
The ban on workplace smoking went into effect here in FL on July 1. FL law now dictates that a business must be a smoke-free environment if more than 10% of their total sales is food as opposed to drinks. More than one small business owner I know will be shutting their doors completely because of this ban. Others will simply stop serving food and other will continue to ignore the ban in order to stay in business.
"Personally, I've never confused a pub with a gym or a daycare center".
Exactly on point! Who goes to a pub to get healthy???
The ban on workplace smoking went into effect here in FL on July 1. FL law now dictates that a business must be a smoke-free environment if more than 10% of their total sales is food as opposed to drinks. More than one small business owner I know will be shutting their doors completely because of this ban. Others will simply stop serving food and other will continue to ignore the ban in order to stay in business.
Aug 13th, 2003, 10:18 AM
#33
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's amazing...there's a public outcry to ban smoking in public, but what about the companies that make the tobacco products in the first place??? Where's the public outcry to put them out of business since "smoking is bad"??? Seems ass backwards to me...
NOTE - I am a recreational tobacco smoker...if I'm having an alcoholic drink, I gotta have a smoke!
NOTE - I am a recreational tobacco smoker...if I'm having an alcoholic drink, I gotta have a smoke!
Aug 13th, 2003, 10:23 AM
#34
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: <i>There are any number of machines out there that will filter and ionize the air to a pristine condition in seconds or minutes.</i>
If true, DiAblo, I would personally have no problem with owners being given a choice to either ban smoking or, as you put it "to bite the financial bullet and install TWICE the recommended smoke-eaters as required."
It would be interesting to know how much discussion there was about this option in California or Ireland and why it seems to have been rejected.
But here's one thing to consider. I've read that the dire predictions of business falling off in California did not come true. If that's the case, if business did not drop off all that much, or at all, for a restaurant owner, he'd actually be better off, financially, because he'd still have roughly the same customer base without the extra expense of filtration systems.
If true, DiAblo, I would personally have no problem with owners being given a choice to either ban smoking or, as you put it "to bite the financial bullet and install TWICE the recommended smoke-eaters as required."
It would be interesting to know how much discussion there was about this option in California or Ireland and why it seems to have been rejected.
But here's one thing to consider. I've read that the dire predictions of business falling off in California did not come true. If that's the case, if business did not drop off all that much, or at all, for a restaurant owner, he'd actually be better off, financially, because he'd still have roughly the same customer base without the extra expense of filtration systems.
Aug 13th, 2003, 12:44 PM
#36
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Except for instances when a person throws a drinks in another person's face (does this really ever happen outside the movies? 
), I am not aware of any situations where someone else's alcohol goes into someone else's nose.
), I am not aware of any situations where someone else's alcohol goes into someone else's nose.
Aug 14th, 2003, 01:52 AM
#37
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capo, great analogy! I had to laugh at that one. And, you certainly do have a point. But I feel that everyone has become positively mean to smokers and they are treated like second class citizens everywhere now.
I believe that the best solution is to let bar/pub owners decide whether they wish to offer a smoking bar or a non-smoking bar. And the employees can choose to work in the environment that suits them as well. And the clients can choose the atmosphere that they prefer. Then we can all get along. Right?
I believe that the best solution is to let bar/pub owners decide whether they wish to offer a smoking bar or a non-smoking bar. And the employees can choose to work in the environment that suits them as well. And the clients can choose the atmosphere that they prefer. Then we can all get along. Right?
Aug 14th, 2003, 05:35 AM
#38
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think the whole no smoking in bars thing is working out in NYC. I read now that no one visits them anymore. A bigger problem is people saying they are going outside for a smoke then making a run for it without paying. Perhaps a smoking/nonsmoking section of a bar. Employees can work on either side if they have a problem.
Aug 14th, 2003, 07:07 AM
#39
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ug, not more smokers complaining as if they are an ethnic minority being persecuted. When mildly intoxicated I too have the odd puff, but I still would rather have non smoky pubs.
Hey Angela, yes another Northern Irishman from Belfast, bored at work with little to do...
Hey Angela, yes another Northern Irishman from Belfast, bored at work with little to do...
Aug 16th, 2003, 03:12 PM
#40
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am glad to hear that there will be a ban soon in Ireland on smoking -- we have had the same laws here in California for several years & ran into the same complaints in the begining. Yes some places have had a decline for a time, but most have recovered. I have some friends that still smoke, but they even like the non-smoking rules also! They appreciate the fact that you can eat in a resturant/pub without comming out of the place smelling like a ashtray!
