We are traveling to Germany soon. My wife and I have traveled to much of Europe. She has wanted to tour Germany for a long time. I have resisted because of the history of what the Germans did to the Jews. <BR>I am not Jewish, but, know a Polish family who was actually incarcerated in one of the camps. <BR>I know families who lost several members to this horror fighting against the Germans. <BR> <BR>I carry this vision with me in a heavy heart and hold some resentment toward Germany and it's citizens. <BR>I know enough of history to realize this persecution has repeatedly occurred throughout the world. <BR>How do you other travelers cope with these images, with the knowledge of what has happened in our own lifetime? This isn't ancient history, it was yesterday, in the scope of history. <BR>I pray that this anger, this resentment is lifted from my heart. How do you cope with these feelings? Surely, some of you must feel the same. <BR>Please, sincere replies only. <BR>

Sorry, can't help. Feel the same way.

Born at the beginning of the baby boom, not Jewish, but aware of what happened in Nazi Germany from a very young age, I have been to Italy, Greece, France several times, and to England, Spain, Portugal. I have not been to Germany, though I know it's beautiful and interesting. I'm just beginning to consider going there. This may be silly, but part of my "reasoning" is that the people who caused, implemented, or by their complicity supported the Nazi horrors are now, if not actually dead, at least partially neutralized by age, disease or senility. It makes me feel a little friendlier toward Germany, which is now populated by just plain "people" who cannot reasonably be blamed for what was done in the 30's and early 40's.

I will also go anon, since I feel badly about this, I suppose. I have Germany low on my list: I'm sure it has unique lovely spots, but frankly too many other places have them also, and I don't believe that all of their old attitudes have died out sufficiently to get me there. For the same reason, I ignore China and many of the communist countries: If I don't support how they treat their citizens and their basic ideologies, why give them my money and time? Sure, I'll miss some sights and experiences, but life is full of them, so don't hate *me* or others who feel that way, just go and enjoy them yourself should you choose. <BR>But, that just leaves more room for the people who do want to hit it, I reason. <BR>None of this, of course, helps you with your dilemma with your wife. Good luck!

This is an interesting set of issues -- well more than interesting. <BR> <BR>By the criteria of avoiding countries where there are ongoing abuses of parts of the citizenry or abuses in the recent past or so egregious that they are never to be forgiven -- well that blocks out just about everywhere in the world from traveling. [or residing for that matter!] <BR> <BR>As someone who teaches ethics and has a strong personal and professional interest in the Balkans [where revenge and oppression have a long history -- it's been a veritable regional "sport"] I think a lot about these issues. And it's not easy to reconcile my belief that humans *are* good with what humans do/have done/will do to other humans. Is it human nature after all? Or is it particular cultural developments? I don't know. With regard to the Holocaust I would recommend Christopher Browning's "Ordinary Men" for one version of the Nazi dynamic. <BR> <BR>Have I traveled to germany? Yes. Often during the 70s when my brother worked there. Would I travel there in the future? Probably -- but this time specifically to see the museum and memorial in Berlin. <BR> <BR>I remember a thread where someone's spouse thought it was too "depressing" to visit one of the Nazi internment camps. What we do on vacation is a personal choice. BUT, there is that old saw: that if we don't learn history [and travel is one of the best ways!] we are doomed to repeat it.

Dear Charles,being a German,born in the fifties I can understand your question. Germans live with their past and accept it as part of their history. We have again a strong jewish community which plays a role in politics and everyday life . Antisemitism nowadays is worldwide still existing and is a problem even in the US. In fact laws in the states allow internet homepages of right wing extremists,which would take you here right into prison. <BR>If you come to Germany as a tourist you will find an open-minded friendly society and a phantastic countyside,historic cities and a very happy atmosphere. I think that history should not be forgotten,but I have come for many years to the US without thinking of the ill fate of black Americans and Indians many years ago. <BR>Your society has changed and ours as well.We should open our minds and understand,that any nation has black spots in its history. <BR>Have a good time in Germany and enjoy your stay !

I am writing anon as well. I do understand your feelings. When we were in Munich we were determined to visit Dachau to pay our respects to the victims of the holocaust who had died there. First of all the public transport there was not well advertised, but we got there and found it a moving experience. We were pleased we went and although I am not Jewish I feel the same outrage about what happened.This experience has not put me off visiting Germany, although I experienced the war as achild in a often bombed city in Uk. You cannot visit the sins of the fathers on the children and we need to forgive the past without forgetting what happened. <BR>Strangely, I felt rather differently when I visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki war museums. The hostility of the locals was quite palpable and yet while I regretted the lives lost I can recall that the Japanese would have continued the war without the action taken. We may disagree about this as feelings towards former enemies are often very subjective.

I'm planning a trip to Germany next year and found myself thinking about this very subject. <BR> <BR>After much thought, here's what I think: <BR>I felt that Germany today is different that Germany under Hitler. The same can be said for the US. Should I be punished for what happened here to African Americans during slavery? My answer to that is no. I never took part nor would I ever take part in what occurred during that time. Is there still racism in both countries? Yes, which is a shame, but I'm not part of that. Should I punish myself or the people of Germany today for what happened in the past? I say no, hence, my trip to Germany next year. I'm looking foward to not only seeing the beautiful country, but meeting many of the wonderful German people. <BR> <BR>Everyone has to decide for themselves what is right for them personally. Maybe spending some time there will help you come to terms with what happened and allow you to replace some of the sadness with a few fond memories of time spent with your wife. <BR> <BR>

Charles, <BR> <BR>It's nice to know that so many of us have had similar feelings. I am also one of "those" people who feel other's pain. It can cause a real problem sometimes. <BR> <BR>My mother in law is a German woman born several years before the war and it is heartbreaking to hear how she and her family suffered through and for years afterward. In many ways the German people were victims those horrible leaders too. I will not go into details , but having met this woman I can tell you I now have a different view of things. <BR> <BR>I can also tell you that my first trip to Germany (for business and could not be avoided) I was actually shocked to see a thriving Jewish neighborhood in Frankfurt! I will not tell you it is a perfect place with no discrimination because I honestly don't know. Visiting concentration camps and other Nazi related places is something I will ever do. I have however made lots of friends over the past 10 years in Germany, just as I have in Zimbabwe, Brazil and Spain. <BR> <BR>Charles do try to open your heart not just to the German people but to all mankind. You indicated that you pray for this and I will assume that if you are a Christian you know that it is by God's Grace alone that saves each of us. Try not to judge another person or an entire race by what their forefathers have done. Remember the prayer that never fails: "THY WILL BE DONE". Good luck to you.

It is certainly understandable that someone whose family was involved in the terror of Nazi Germany might find the idea of a visit tough to stomach. As a boomer kid whose dad had lots to say about Krauts and Japs and who remembered the weekly newsreels that brought WWII history into our classrooms, I found it at least a little eerie to be headed to Germany for a year of study as well. <BR> <BR>But my visit to Germany brought unanticipated enlightenment. I lived in a dorm where interracial couples were far more commonplace than at home. I learned that it was now a crime to deny the Holocaust, and I wondered whether our society would have had the moral fortitude to abbrogate our fist amendment rights in this way had we been the perpetrators of Nazism. I learned that Germans now referred to Hitler not as the "Führer", but as their "Verführer", or one who leads others astray. But most impressive was that I met lots and lots of people who completely understood why my parents' generation had bombed the living hell out of their country and killed so many of their own relatives. I was always treated respectfully and graciously by Germans, who sometimes invited me to their homes and expressed concern about how they are perceived by the rest of the world some 25 years after the war -- and never once was our own mini-holocaust against native Americans thrown in my face as though I were personally responsible for those crimes. <BR> <BR>I believe Germany is a model for other countries on how to behave after having allowed oneself to be horribly misled. My many subsequent visits have led me to see it as a place that is far more free from racial prejudice and violence than is our own society. We can perpetuate our stereotypes of the past, or we can travel and learn.

Charles <BR>I disagree that Germany is a example of racial tolerance. I don't see that anymore than I do in most other countries. The intolerance shown towards the turkish immigrants is one example - houses and hostels where they reside have been burnt ect. The neo nazi movement is growing in Germany primarily but also over Europe and N America. I do though think that we all bear some responsibilty for the events of the past. The UK and other countries showed ignorance at what was obviously happening under their noses. Other nations though such as Holland and Denmark offered amazing help to Jewish people in their own countries without thinking of the personal cost to themselves. We in the UK did little initially to help the Jewish people. We could have done so much more but initially chose not too. The evidence was there, we chose to ignore it. The Christian church also apart from some individuals were in many ways not worthy of being called followers of Christ in how it stood by and watched. Being silent is (in my view) as bad as taking part. It is condoning all that is happening. But it is not easy to stand and be counted. I hope and pray if the situation arose again I would do what is right despite the cost. <BR>I live in Germany but am not German and I find it hard at times,having said that it is a beautiful country and well worth visiting. You will be made welcome particularly if you try a few words of German. <BR>I often think if Hitler had been for example British could it have happened in Britain. I also try to think what it was about the German economy/nature ect at that time that allowed such inhumanity and evil. The issues are so complex. <BR>While I think the German people and all of us to some extent must bear some responsibilty and remember all that happened, I don't think it is up to us to inflict more guilt on others or judgement. That is not our responsibilty, I think we will all be judged one day for our actions and how we led our lives so I have no doubt that those responsible in any way will be held to account. <BR>It is good to think through these issues and it is a valid question.

Angela: You will find isolated incidents of racial intolerance in every country, such as those against Turks in Germany. I still think you'll find fewer of these in Germany than elsewhere, and more concern about them. Germany is and has always been under a media microscope whenever racial tensions are in evidence (in fact, the only news about Germany you can ever find seems to regard hate crimes) -- even small incidents are cause for a column in our papers. In the last 12 months, there have been several hate crimes against blacks, Jews and immigrants within 20 miles of my home in California -- a burned cross, graffiti scrawled across homes, mail threats, a burned synagogue, the like. Here, there were no mass protests against the perpetrators of the incidents, as often happens in Germany. In Germany, such acts are cause for great concern, and people hit the streets to raise awareness. Such things are forgetten here rather easily in comparison.

Charles <BR>The most impressive statement I have read in 3 trips to Europe and 1 to OZ & NZ, was on our first trip in 1984 to Germany. It is carved on a memorial at Dachau - in essence, to prevent recurrence in the future, we must remember the past!! I have both german and czech ancestry. I wanted to see history. Dachau was/is particularly interesting historically because all nationalities were there, Religious, political, etc. We were there on a brillantly sunny day, but you could still feel the oppression and the magnitude of the tragedy. Nothing I had read in books or seen in movies at that time, has ever left a greater impact/memory of the loss that ocurred in World War II. Only visiting the D Day beaches and cemetary has equaled that visit. <BR> <BR>Truly if we are honest and avoided places where persecution took place, could we visit most places in the world? Look what our American ancestors did to the Indians and then, in World War II to Japanese Americans. I have also visited the Jewish Quarter in Prague to see how the czechs treated the Jews. Think about how France treated their poor, how Australians originally treated their natives. The list could go on. <BR>I think almost all countries at some time or another in history (or currently) have (or are) made moves which have been against humanity. <BR>Hopefully by traveling we individuals learn, develop a better understanding of others (or at least better tolerance) and help prevent future inhumanities to man, if not on a global but a daily basis.

Russ <BR> <BR>Hope I was not misunderstood. If you read back I did say that I don't see racial tolerance more apparent in Germany than any other country. Implying therefore that I know very well intolerance of others exists everywhere. I personally don't see Germany as being better (or worse) than others. It is true when you say that such racial incidents are often met in Germany with public outcry as it's own nations past is very close to the average Germans heart. In the UK it is not always the case, I have no experience of the US with regard to this. <BR>Angela

The best way I could suggest is to get to know individual Germans. We have friends who both grew up in Berlin. AFter 20 years I finally got up the courage to ask them about the war. Their response was, it was very hard, we had family members who starved to death. I once dated a Jewish man whose father and grandmother had been in Theresienstadt (his grandfather had been Protestant, or they would have gone somewhere worse and likely perished). I, too, know many families who lost if not lives, then certainly youth and innocence and peace of mind in fighting that (and other) wars. I doubt many families American were spared that. Do you know any veterans of WWII who travel to Europe? Maybe asking them this question would help. How do you travel to France with the knowledge of the Vichy government? How do you travel to Italy with the knowledge of Mussolini? Spain? As other have pointed out, we could go on and on with that list. How about Switzerland? Austria, Hitler's homeland? Germany was devasted economically after WWI (by war reparations) and many would argue that the economic devastation led to a susceptibility to Nationalist (Nazi) ideology. So maybe the whole world has learned a lesson. AFter WWII, denying Japan much of a military freed much capital for investment in technology and other companies. (Sort of like denying the US tobacco companies the ability to spend on advertising=bulk up their bottom line; another subject.) My dad and uncle both served in the Pacific during WWII, but that hasn't stopped any of us from buying Toshibas or Panasonics or Sonys, or indeed traveling there. I think it helped my dad to be back in Japan during the Korean Conflict/War, and to get to know Japanese personally. Sometimes people do what their governments tell them to do--whether it is palatable or not. We can't all be Dietrich Bonhoeffers (but if you don't know his story, look it up). God help us, some of us have families we want to protect and feed.

I am a WWII Vet - been to Germany many times - saw the complete distruction of entire cities/complete blocks, etc. Remember Germany was also under a severe depression just like we were. Hitler came along at the right time and promised the population a return of their pride using the effects after WWI. Remember how proud the average german soldier was when he returned to Paris and signed the treaty in the same RR Car used after WWI. Now my bottom line is: LET THE FIRST STONE BE TOSSED BY THE PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY FREE OF SIN. Ask yourself what have I done the last day/week/month/year for someone who is less fortunate than I. Your answer might surprise you. My advise (although you have not asked)is to enjoy life while you can. Hope I have helped.

I too am planning to visit Germany this fall. My parents were born in Berlin. They were fortunate and got out just in time. 40 other relatives were not so lucky. I am a 1st generation American. I have struggled with the idea of visiting my parents, grandparents birthplace, as well as the grave of my grandfather whome I never knew...but feel the need to do so. I hope you enjoy your tirp. We will never forget...and traveling is a lesson in history as well.

If I condemned a country for the sins of its history I'd have to skip England (my family is Irish, but you could throw in any number of other oppressed minorities). <BR> <BR>I'd also have to skip Belgium (what happened in African Congo competes with Nazi attrocities), Turkey (Armenians), Japan (Manchuria, WWII, oppression of minorities), France (Africa), Spain and Portugal (the native populations of most of the western hemisphere), Russia (the pogroms).... I could go on. <BR> <BR>I'd probably be well advised to give up my U.S. citizenship as well, citing the treatment of Native Americans, African Americans, Japanese internees, etc. <BR> <BR>There are very bad people and very good people in every place and at every time. If you condemn one, you should proabably condemn them all, just to be even-handed, and you'd never travel again.

Go, if not with an open heart, then with an open mind. As you learn more, understand more, then maybe your resentment- hate -will become sadness and compassion for mankind as a whole. <BR> <BR>The Holocaust was a crime against humans by humans, as was Manchuria, the Russian pogroms, the destruction of Aborigines and Native Americans... those involved should be judged as people, not as Germans, Japanese, Russians etc. Germany is diminished by the Holocaust but so is the rest of humanity. <BR> <BR>I hope this has been of some help. Good luck.

Racism is as old as history and will exist until the end of time. I doubt that any country can consider itself superior to any other when it comes to racial issues. I've seen racism, to one degree or another, everywhere I've been. A part of life virtually everywhere, sad but true. <BR> <BR>In the States I've seen a type of racism between urban blacks and inner-city blacks. <BR> <BR>And speaking of black people, I've noticed their plight mentioned in several references to the U.S. but only one mention of what happend to the American Indians, and furthermore, what is happening to them still. <BR> <BR>A man named Leonard Peltier, an Oglala Sioux, is being held as a political prisoner in a Federal pen in Kanzas. If you're truly interested in racism, look up his case on any number of web sites. <BR> <BR>After reviewing the facts I think most will agree that had Peltier been white he would have been released on parole years ago. Had he been black he would have likely received the preferential treatment often afforded to his race by the American media and different "watchdog" groups. But because he is poor, disenfranchised and a member of a forgetton ethnic group with virtually zero political clout, he remains in prison while billionairs and white house cronies walk free. <BR> <BR>Racism is alive and well everywhere you go. The German's nor the Americans have a patient on it, though some of the rest of the world would like to believe so.