tedgale

I don't think the Church of Scotland has bishops, has it? Much too egalitarian and suspicious of pomp and hierarchy (to judge by its colonial emanations here in Canada, among whose adherents were 3/4 of my forebears).

Hence no seats in the H of L, with the Lords Spiritual, the Lords Temporal and the Law Lords (sitting on that comfy woolsack)

But sheilaritchie will sort us out definitively on this one -- I'm dying to know.

sheila

Ted is quite right. The Church of Scotland is presbyterian not episcoplian; thus no bishops.

And it's the Lord Chancellor who sits on the woolsack, not the Law Lords (of whom we DO get a share

tedgale

Thanks for the correction, sheilaritchie.

But in old photos the woolsack always looked so large -- couldn't he or she shift over and share?

LoveItaly

Question, is a woolsack a pillow? Thank you.

Neil_Oz

I'll have to leave it to Sheila to expound on the woolsack. It looks like I need to go back to school, anyway. I knew that the Presbyterian Church didn't have bishops, but thought that the Church of Scotland was a different thing, part of the Anglican Communion and so necessarily episcopalian.

I have an ancestor who on arrival in Australia from Dublin described herself as "Church of Ireland". I made the same assumption about that church.

In this neck of the woods the only Presbyterians left are a few diehards who refused to merge with the Methodists and the Congregationalists into the new Uniting Church.

LoveItaly

Hi Neil, well I was one step ahead of you there, because knew (or thought I did) that the Church of Scotland was the Presbyterian Church only because that is what my Scot grandfather belonged.

The Church of Ireland is what? I always thought that was the Catholic Church. Am I wrong? I am from time to time I am sorry to say.

Still waiting to hear what "woolsacks" are. And they say we all speak the same language. I think not, sigh.

Take good care.

tedgale

Ha! I can qualify one of the posts above, though I cannot entirely rebut Sheila.

I was sure I had seen a whole bunch of worthies on a big bean-bag during openings of Parliament. Seems they were on A woolsack but not THE woolsack. Read on:

"The Woolsack is the seat of the Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords. The seat is a large, wool-stuffed cushion covered with red cloth; it has neither a back nor arms....

"Introduced in the fourteenth century, the seat was originally stuffed with English wool, which, due to the importance of the wool trade, was a symbol of the nation's prosperity. Today, however, wool from the various nations of the Commonwealth is used, in order to symbolise the Commonwealth's unity.

"The Lord Chancellor may speak from the Woolsack when speaking in his capacity of Speaker of the House, but must, if he seeks to debate, deliver his remarks either from the left side of the Woolsack, or from the normal seats of the Lords.

"In front of the Woolsack is an even larger cushion known as the Judges' Woolsack. During the State Opening of Parliament, the Judges' Woolsack is occupied by the Law Lords. The seat, however, is by no means restricted to judges only; during normal sittings, any Lord may occupy it."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolsack"

cmt

This is the online version of the paper I read sometimes when I was in Turkey. It's an English-language daily. http://www.turkishdailynews.com/FrTDN/latest/heads.htm

Neil_Oz

LoveItaly, I just checked the official website of the Church of Scotland and confess that I've erred. But the Church of Ireland is a province of the Anglican Communion. It traces its roots back to St Patrick, which is probably enough to turn this thread into a major theological donnybrook.

Now that we've got the woolsack business sorted out, are you ready to find out all about the onerous duties of the Usher of the Black Rod? (tedgale, does the Canadian Parliament also have one of them?)

LoveItaly

Neil, Usher of the Black Rod??

Oh my, I am becoming more grateful minute by minute that my grandparents immigrated from London and Scotland (via NZ and Australia) to the US.
How, pray tell, do you dear people keep track of all of the customs??

I am still rereading Tedgales post regarding " a woolsack" versus "the woolsack". The scary thing is that it rather makes sense to me. But will read the post again tomorrow to make sure.

Now Neil, about the Usher of the Black Rod. Do tell, please.

sheila

The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod is an official of the House of Lords, his position instituted in 1350. His appointment is by royal letters patent, and his title is due to his staff of office, an ebony stick surmounted with a gold lion. He is a personal attendant of the sovereign in the Upper House, and is also usher of the order of the Garter, being doorkeeper at the meetings of the knights' chapter. He is responsible for the maintenance of order in the House of Lords, and on him falls the duty of arresting any peer guilty of breach of privilege or other offence of which the House takes cognizance. But the duty which brings him most into prominence is that of summoning the Commons and their speaker to the Upper House to hear a speech from the throne or the royal assent given to bills. If the sovereign is present in parliament, Black Rod commands the attendance ,of the gentlemen of the Commons, but when lords commissioners represent the king, he only desires such attendance.As soon as the attendants of the House of Commons are aware of his approach, they close the doors in his face. Black Rod then strikes three times with his staff, and on being asked Who is there? replies Black Rod. Being then admitted he advances to the bar of the House, makes three obeisances and says, Mr Speaker, the king (or queen) commands this honorable House to attend His (or Her) Majesty immediately in the House of Lords. This formality originated in the famous attempt of Charles I. to arrest the five members, Hampden, Pym, Holles, Hesilrige and Strode, in 1642. The House of Commons has ever since maintained its right of freedom of speech and uninterrupted debate by the closing of the doors on the king's representative.

Mary_Fran

Wow! Are you guys ever smart! Thanks for the informative discussion.

propertravel

Very interesting posting in the topic, though very political issue.
Want to give a very brief information and some answers to the posters with another angle of opinions:
*Turkey is the only secular democratic muslim country of the world.
*One of the first countries of the world gave rights to women to be elected and to be able to elect by their votes. Much before USA, Much before Sweden and much much before Switzerland and it works.
*Turkey was invited to be a part of pre EU 40 years ago and one of our leading party leader that time refused. But we were one of the first in Nato.
*Country livis a dilemma weather to be part of Europe or Not.
To my opinion we should upgrade our living standarts and we should liberally change some laws etc. afterwards I do not personally care weather they accept Turkey in Eu or not. Somewhat if we do not get a clear answer next month we shuld pull out ourselves since its a very dishonoring issue.
* To my rememberance of an article in German Stern: in Germany beating woman rate is higher than in Turkey !
* Turkish workers did not go to Germany by force, they have been invited and actually goverment bagged Turkey to send workers to keep their economy upright! They ofcourse get people from rural areas who has no work, no skill and they were even not been to a Turkish city in their entire lives before. What one expects ? total integration in 20 or 30 years ???? Have they been accepted fully to the society so they did not entegrated? Have they been offered all the options fully to be able to entegrate ? Nowadays 3rd generation is fully entegrated and they are more German like than a German if you ask me.They have a heavy inflence in the German economy and they are also now getting employers to Germans to some extend.
* Someone tells ebout Armenian genocide.... Should come to Turkey to study national archives of Ottoman and spek to historians before making a statement.
Europe had its own genocide just 60 years ago and they can be entegrated now.... Germany in
2.nd world war....today Poland is a Eu member, where Germany is heavly putting money in the EU fonds for them to use. Nothing wrong with it...
* Turkey yes its true has a high percentage of young population in "Europe" !. As an example to the current foreign workers situation; I take the example of Germany again; The population getting alder and the founds to cater needs of elderly is getting limited so is the work force. What will happen in 20 years, will Germany not call foreign workers again ?
* Turkey actually on e of the very few self sufficent countries of the world. Unfortunatelly due to missmanagment I would call, we have not been able to make good use of our assets. Both underground and above ground and we did not work good enough for a better infrustructure for better living. Now we do. So another way of saying we are actually not that poor
* With its dynamic population ( which grows every year ) Turkey is a great country for consuming European products. The number of households with fully automatic washing machines, dishwashers, TV.sets, videos, DVD's etc. would be an amazing statistic and how soon people are renewing them to get a better model. ( perhaps thats why we are poor though )
* If a country counts part of a continent by the land which belongs to that continent geographically how come England or Cyprus is considered as Europe ? is another question I would raise as appose.
* One thing might sound very awkward but Army in Turkey should seen differently; we see the army as the guarantee of the Turkish Republic as Ataturk has given them the duty to look after all the assets of the Republic not only defend and keep the peace. 90% of the population would say if something goes wrong in the political life and secularity is in danger we have the army to protect us.
I can imagine some people will not match this with democracy but this is the fact.
* Being in the travel business I meet a lot of different people from different walks of lifes and once they dicover the countries richness in the cultural and ethnic mosaic they change their perspective towards the country.

I do understand we have a long way to go still but I believe we are capable to overcome the problems one way or another.

Thanks to discuss this issue on behalf of us anyway, so this is also a sign that we are considered as part of EU ;-)

Happy Travelling

Murat

cmt

Murat, I was hoping that someone from Turkey would post on this thread!

If possible, would you correct any misinformation I may have posted in my attempt to explain the problems of represntation when there are too many small parties? I wasn't exactly sure. Also, can you explain what is the source of the official definition of minority in Turkey. Is it in the constitution, or in a separate document written around the time that the new nation was formed?

tedgale

Responding to Neil_Oz ans with acknowledgement to Sheilaritchie and thanks to others for their indulgence of this sub-theme on "their" thread:

Yes indeed, Canada has a Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod -- sometimes a retired military gent of distinction (though the further we get from our fightin' days the harder that is to find)

His functions, as I recall them, are very like those of his British counterpart. He too knocks three times on the doors of the House to tell them that the Sovereign or her representative (the Governor General) awaits them in the Senate for the reading of the Throne Speech.

I believe he also precedes the members as they progress from House to Senate.

I've only seen the Queen read the Speech once, that I can recall -- 1978, when as a stripling youth I was working for one of the parties. She wore white, as always -- an elaborate ballgown worn with tiara or crown at midday was impressive if a bit odd.

By contrast our present GG, the intelligent and "artistic" Adrienne Clarkson, opened Parliament in an edgy "designer" creation that made her look as though she had been roused from sleep and had wrapped herself hurriedly in the blankets to meet Parliament.

cmt

Re-posting this from above so Murat will see it and not think the subject has changed to UK religion (p.s. why not start a seaparate thread on those things since there seems to be interest?):

Murat, I was hoping that someone from Turkey would post on this thread!

If possible, would you correct any misinformation I may have posted in my attempt to explain the problems of represntation when there are too many small parties? I wasn't exactly sure. Also, can you explain what is the source of the official definition of minority in Turkey. Is it in the constitution, or in a separate document written around the time that the new nation was formed?

sheila

Sorry Carol (hangs head in shame)

SidB

I was amazed that I had to wait until 2 thirds through the thread before the term "human rights" was mentioned. This is the biggest hinderance to Turkey joining the EU. The other major problem is the issue of Cyprus.

I don't understand why religion was even raised in this thread. Religion plays no part in the running of the EU.

Neil_Oz

Being Australian, our Usher of the Black Rod is not a Gentleman, I'm pleased to say. I believe that in response to the Usher's invitation the members of the Lower House are led into the Senate chamber by the Serjeant-at-Arms.

tedgale, our Governor-General is in fact a retired military officer. Two previous occupants embarrassed the government: one, a former judge, kept expressing opinions on social issues that the Prime Minister would rather not talk about; the other, an archbishop, ... well, none of us wants to talk about that. As a result this one is keeping a low profile. Few can remember his name, and there are several theories to account for his invisibility: one has it that he was kidnapped months ago, another that his commando training is standing him in good stead, and a third I think has something to do with animatronics.

SidB, we're talking about religion precisely because it has nothing to do with the point.

cmt

Sid: Those who brought up Moslem religion as a reason why Turkey might not be admitted were, I think, just reporting one of the real reasons for public opposition, not one of the proper reasons that's expressed.