cmt

I never thought about this matter much until last month when I was on vacation in Turkey for about 2 1/2 weeks. I picked up an English-language Turkish newspaper a few times, and found that more than half the paper was dedicated to articles about the EU admission issue. My impression was that the second most discussed topic was the related issue of the definition of "minority" in Turkey, i.e. whether the official Turkish definition should be broadened to encompass ethnic as well as religious minorities, and the scope of rights of defined minorities. This issue is related to the EU issue, because one of the arguments made opposing Turkish admission is that their treatment of ethnic "minorities," namely the Kurds, is not acceptable to the EU. There's a joke in Turkey that (because there seem to be so many arguments against their admission and none of them seem to be the "real" reason) the real reason why western European countries oppose their admission must be because they wear mustaches. Have you heard/read much opinion expressed about whether the admission of a secular, majority-Moslem country would be good for the EU, or whether the fact that most Turks are Moslem is perceived as a problem?

I wonder how Turkey's admission, if it occurs, would affect poorer regions of EU countries, whose residents often migrate to other parts of their own country or to other countries (EU and otherwise) for work, and how it would affect regions that are heavy producers of agricultural products that Turkey produces and exports in abundance. I also wonder what the attitude is in those places (e.g., parts of Germany) where many Turkish people have migrated for work and where they haven't always been treated well. Turkey, unlike some other European countries, has a proportionately young population, and I wonder how that figures into the discussion.

PatrickLondon

It's not high on the list of conversation topics in my local pub. You won't see much in the UK outside the broadsheets:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/0,12700,852986,00.html

Vorkuta

Interesting post.

I just got back from three weeks in London, northern Belgium and northern France.

While in the UK, I read a long article in the London Review of Books about Turkey's efforts to join the EU. But the only discussion on the matter which I heard (or rather overheard) was in the club in London where I stayed. Picture two Englishmen in their 60s, pink complexions, eating a big cooked breakfast:

A: You know, we really ought to support Turkey's application to join the EU. After all, they fought on our side in the Crimean War.

B: Yes, but they fought against us in the First World War.

A: Ah well, that was regrettable.

degas

Looks like this is not a popular idea in Europe for a wide variety of reasons. EU leader's views appear at odds with common people.

Fear of widespread movment by poor muslim workers is an often unspoken objection. The process to obtain memebership could take up to a decade.

Read this article for more info:

http://search.csmonitor.com/2004/1006/p06s02-woeu.html

hsv

This is the most controversially discussed subject in German politics as of today.
Whether or not cmt's view that Turkish immigrants have not been treated well here, remains to be discussed.
The fact is a vast number of them have not been integrated well into society and have a complete lack of language.
Whether or not it makes a lot of sense to allow Turkey (which only to a small degree is located on the European continent) to join the EU also remains to be discussed.

hsv

I forgot to point out one specific issue:
European governments would not necessarily feel tempted to allow Turkey to the EU. But there is a strong driving force behind Turkey's application, namely the US administration that wants Turkey as a comparatively stable NATO memeber to be integrated into Western Alliances.
We have already gathered some experience of which effects a controversy with the current adminsitration has, which is why the German government has decided to back the application of Turkey in spite of severe doubts of the population shown in polls.

degas

The key question seems to be: Is Turkey really European based on common geography, language, religion, culture and history?

Giscard d'Estaing, in an interview with four newspapers including Le Monde and Handelsblatt, stated "Turkey is not a European country, it is a country that is situated near Europe." He went on to add that "its capital is not in Europe and 95 per cent of its population live outside Europe."

Tallulah

But they participate in the Eurovision Song Contest....!

lobo_mau

In European Song Contests and in European Soccer Championships.

Yes, they fought against UK in the First World War, but the same did Germany (and in the 2nd if I remember correctly) and that fact didn't prevent Germany to be one of the founding members of EU.

cmt

Degas, you said, "The key question seems to be: Is Turkey really European based on common geography, language, religion, culture and history?"

That would seem to make sense, but oddly enough, the objections stated never seem to be based on the very obvious fact that Turkey is barely in Europe (and that its capital clearly is not at all). The religious difference seems to be a major, but usually unspoken reason for objections. While culturally/historically, and certainly linguistically, Turkey is more central Asian than European, this Asian culture had a trememdous influence on much of what's now "mainstream" Europe because the Ottoman empire controlled so much of Europe.

cmt

Vorkuta, I AM picturing that little dialogue that you described and it's funny.

degas

cmt, I have not studied this issue in great detail, but I keep asking myself why would the EU allow this to happen. And where do you draw the line on admission if geography and religion are not limiting factors? Why not Israel, Georgia or Egypt?

I have read the french people are against the idea since 10% of thier population is muslim and they fear a flood of poor muslim workers will drive crime up and wages down.

Vorkuta

Hi CMT,

Yes, I thought that little dialogue was funny, too. When I phoned my husband the next day, I recited it to him. (He's Russian, and has an interest in the Crimean War.) He roared with laughter. "Some people have such long memories!" he said.

cmt

Degas, why should religion necessarily be a factor? The EU members are all supposedly secular nations (I thought), even though their populations are predominantly Christian and some are less secular than others. I do see, however, that being barely
European&quot; should perhaps have more than a tiny bit of bearing on the question of whether a nation whould be part of the <b>European</b> Union.

degas

cmt, I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Europe may be secular now but its culture and values were largely shaped/influenced by christianity.

I would think that many europeans would object to how muslims treat women and also take a negative view of homosexuality.

cmt

Turkish women are not treated the way women are treated in the very &quot;extreme&quot; Muslim countries. I agree that the culture of most of Europe may be dominated by Christianity, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that religion <i>should</i> be a grounds for denying admission to the EU, even though it probably <i>is</i> the main gound, though not one that is freely spoken.

I'm not at all expert at this either. I really never thought about it until last month. It was a very very hot issue in Turkey last month.

jg1234

negative view? hardly - with gay marriage being considered by Spain it's only a matter of time before all of Europe will allow gay marriage

cmt

Some Turkish homosexuals from the interior, where homosexulity is not tolerated, move to Istanbul, which is a gigantic city where a wide range of lifestyles are apparently tolerated. Therefore there is apparently a large homosexual population in Istanbul. This I heard during my trip from a Turkish guide; I didn't read it in the newspaper.

Frequent_Flyer

My friends and colleagues in France and Belgium say it will not happen in our lifetime. They say that the EU must &quot;consider&quot; it so as to keep peace, but that current EU citizens are very much against it. Their opinion is largely due to cultural differences.

Gardyloo

Turkey's desires to enter the EU are the subject of one of the front page lead stories in today's <i>Wall Street Journal.</i>