Cowboy1968

To get this a bit back into proportions: Hundreds of classes from all over Europe are on school trips to other European countries right now.

I cannot remember from my long-ago past that going to Barcelona or London with my class was an issue with my parents or teachers. Though I am clueless what kind of assumed responsibilties an American teacher will have to deal with back home. You guys are the experts in this field.

My rather theoretical example in a former posting was supposed to mean:
Teacher lets 18yo drink in Rome = problems back home = maybe civil lawsuit as apres londee said
Teacher keeps 18yo from doing as he/she pleases in Rome = illegal restraint in Europe, i.e. a criminal offense.

Unless the parents act sensibly and accept that the teacher has no power over their 18yo son or daughter for that time in Italy, I see the teacher or chaperone caught in the middle of two diverging legal systems.

rfbk50

Before you make any plans, check with the school board to see if there is a travel agency that they work with. Most school districts have travel needs, tournaments, play-offs, etc. and they use travel agents. They will also have rules which the kids have to adhere to when traveling. Many schools take kids to Europe, French Clubs for example. If your school district is very rural and small, I am sure that they can direct you to another district that has done European travel. Good luck with your trip!

janisj

Cowboy - in the States people sue (and win) if they get too hot a cup of coffee. A parent will own the school if their child is allowed to drink by a teacher and something bad happens.

When I said different culture I wasn't only talking about the arts, public, transport, legal drinking age, who is and adult and so on . . . . .

It really IS a different culture.

tuscanlifeedit

I'm pretty sure that schools/youth groups from every country use agencies, not just those from the US.

To begin with, agencies are able to negotiate group rates that a school or group couldn't get on their own. Even the most sophisticated school in the universe only does a few, if that, trips a year. An agency does a lot more and has a lot more booking clout.

And even in super sophisticated places, things go wrong. Agencies have the experience to deal with what goes wrong. Even European kids get sick or lost or in trouble. Even European flights get cancelled. Even European busses break down. Or Chinese, or Australian, or whatever.

I just would not do this without the help of a reputable agency that plans such trips.

As a parent who not only sent their kid to Europe with a school trip, but also accompanied a school trip to Europe, I can safely say that I would not pay for my child to take a day trip to Rome from Milan. No way.

Apres_Londee

>>>Agencies have the experience to deal with what goes wrong<<<

Not to mention the liability insurance. I don't even see the OP mention that he would be doing this under the official auspices of the high school. If not, he could be left high and dry if the SHTF.

gunk

No you are not crazy.
I was a chaperone on a trip with over 70 high school students.

All chaperones must be aware of medical conditions and food allergies as well as fears (heights, closed spaces, flying)
I was stuck alone at the top of the tower of Pisa with a girl who was on the verge of a panic attack.

It would help if they all wore the same colour shirt when touring. It may sound geeky but it sure is easy to spot them in a crowd.

Your school district may consider a school trip a continuation of school and the same rules will apply.

If you are on a bus tour then it is a good idea to take all of their passports as soon as you arrive at the airport and stow them in the bus's safe until it is time to go home.

I would not have missed out on this experience. It is a thrill to be see the world through their eyes.

ira

Hi C,

>Even if the chaperones faced legal problems in the US .... - if the student pressed charges.<

It's not a matter of preventing adults from doing what they want to do in Italy, or attempting to impose our standards on anyone else, it is solely a matter of liability for the tour leaders in the US.
..............................
Hi KY,

>The student tour company has their credit card info for payments and can charge the ticket if need be. I really don't see how an individual taking a group if kids could do the same thing. <

You have written prior authorization from the CC holder along with the full CC info.
...............................

Am I correct that the consensus is to set this up through a student travel agency with parents as chaperones?

Gavin

I was fortunate enough to have attended a high school in a small town that had a teacher who was willing and able to take a group to Europe most years. When I was 15 we went to London and Paris. I sent an entire day on my own exploring London on foot. We used the Underground and Metro on our own. At 16 it was Greece. I got lost in Athens. Then I figured out how to get unlost. I was introduced to ouzo and learned about its effects. At 17 we went to Spain. By then I was an old hand.

Danny, I hope you can make this work.

Jean

When I was 17, I travelled around Europe, mostly alone, for six weeks. This was many, many moons ago. The world is an entirely different place today. It's even an entirely different place than it was 10-15 years ago.

elaine

The world is very different, and high school seniors are pretty much the same.
If they backpack through Europe on their own, with our without their parents' blessings, that is their business. Many a 17-year-old has done it and lived to tell the tale. .

"What advice can you give on booking group discount(Youth) discounts on airfare, booking a block of Hotel rooms train travel, etc.?"

I think ira had a concise summary above.

bozama

There is a tour company, Contiki , and they do trips for 18-35 yr olds. I only add this as I feel some Americans don't really understand that although in their country a 18, 19 or 20 yr old is still a child, they are not in most countries.
This IS not a polictical comment, but, rather a different way of seeing things. In America you train and send 18 yr olds to foriegn countries with guns,, it is called the Armed Forces. This is fine I am not commenting on the war or anything like that, but, on the fact that these 18 yr olds are not considered kids are they??

And frankly the parent who had the teacher fired for retrieving kids out of a pub is and was crazy and uptight. Unless the picture showed him drinking with the kids.

Also it is a shame I keep seeing the word " sue" so often in posts. Americans sue too much and it seems as if anything that goes wrong must be blamed and money recovered from another person. If my child got in trouble I would blast MY CHILD and be embarrassed.. geesh. A 17 knows dang well if mommy said no drinking or sex and they are WILLFULLY disobeying, not being "led astray" by another culture, or incapable fo controlling their behaviour unless directly supervised every minute. If that is your kids, don't send them away. Brats need not apply. LOL

rex

<< You are out of your ever-loving mind to even consider it. >>

My reply - - as someone who has done this, twice (or at least more or less) - - would be the 180 degrees opposite in tone.

You will probably LOVE having this magnificent opportunity.

My first group trip - - that gave me the "bug" to want to travel more with groups of 6-16 (those are not magic numbers - - just the size groups I have enjoyed traveling/planning with in the past 10 years) - - was with our three daughters (ages 14-18), six cousins (ages 14-22) and two boyfriends (ages 18 and 22).

It is still, quite possibly, the most memorable trip I ever took.

My other comparable trip was with 13 fifth- and sixth-graders (most about age 11); the chaperones were myself and one fifth-grade teacher (for may of them, she was "their" teacher, here in the US). This is/was an organized program of an organization called AFAC - - unfortunately, it does not exist any more. The teacher did not speak French. The children lived with individual families and we oversaw their activities during the day.

We had the help of two teachers in the (France) community and often some of the local parents. In each case, a child from that French family had already spent three weeks in the USA (with the family of the US child) - - i.e., it was an "exchange" program. There was one boy who was a modest problem with some "acting out" - - but in general, it was also a marvelously successful program.

In a curious twist, the only person "written up" from the trip was me. Although I was never told that it was expressly forbidden - - I had wine in the homes (as a visiting dinner guest) of some of the families - - and some kids mentioned it to their parents. In the context of their being taught in school that tobacco and alcohol are best "avoided for life", I was told that I should have known better.

In any event, I quite agree that you will need to have appropriate guarantees that each student (or their family, in virtually every case, I assume) will really have the resources to pay for the entire trip before major expenses are paid irreversibly (specifically, airfare).

One thing that will work to your advantage: you will HAVE to go through the "groups desk" of any airline to book ore than 10 tickets. The fares will not necessarily be the lowest available on that airline, though the "base fare" (which the airline sets) will be discounted some (10%?) for your group. But you will get a very valuable privilege - - the ability to lock in the fare (usually with a 20% down payment), and the freedom to submit the final list of names about 30-45 days in advance, and they typically tolerate up to one cancellation for every 10 seats you book. This is how it was when I last went through the groups desk - - and this was BEFORE 11 Sep 2001.

Feel free to write me - - and/or even set up a telephone call with me, if you have specific individual questions that ought not be posted publicly here.

Best wishes,

Rex Bickers, M.D.
Floyds Knobs, Indiana

Cowboy1968

From my own "European" perspective:
I did three school or class trips to another European county, to England, France, and Spain.
In Europe, many high schools (or the equivalent) have sister schools in other countries, usually in the town's respective sister city.
On the first two occasions we stayed with host families (i.e. families of students of our sister school). I was age 12 and 14, respectively. Our teachers would join in during our regular language classes (usually 2-3 hours), while the rest of the day was reserved for exploring. Dinner was usually with the host parents and kids - and also several free afternoons to spend with the kids of our host families. No accidents or incidents worth mentioning, besides a twisted ankle or similar petty stuff.

The third and last school trip, I was 16 or 17 - does not matter, it was Stone Age anyway - took us to Spain, where our Spanish teacher had organized accomodation in a (not run-down) hostel. Genders were seperated at check-in, and re-united after 11 or 12pm.
Again, no major incidents worth reporting, besides one of the really dumb girls getting lost on the 500 yards from the hotel to the beach.

Christina

Bozama, bringing in the military to this is really irrelevant, I think. This question was about high school seniors. Unless they have failed, they are not 19-20 years old. Most of them are not even 18 years old (depending on time of year, I was never 18 as a high school senior). It isn't clear when this trip would occur, but let's say Spring Break of Senior year. Many will not be 18. You cannot enlist in the Army before age 18 nor without a HS diploma or equivalent.

IN any case, the military is actually a very regimented existence, with a lot of oversight, and shooting a gun or being in the military has nothing to do with this subject. I actually come from a state with a tradition where we got out of school the first day of hunting season and many kids were taught to shoot guns at a very young age. Being able to shoot a gun has nothing to do with the ability to travel independently in Europe.

I actually do think the US drinking age is too low, it was 18 when I was young (for low-level alcohol beer, 21 for "hard liquor) and we had no more problems than now. Actually, I think there are more drinking problem nowadays than when I was young, and I think the age should return to that.

But I don't think that's the issue here. It is true some Americans sue for anything, but that doesn't excuse the fact that these adults would be taking responsibilities for these kids. They are not adults as seniors in high school, and the parents would be assuming those adults are going to take care of things or they wouldn't be allowing them on the trip. It isn't really a matter of mischief that I was thinking about but what if student did die or get seriously injured and these chaperones did have some culpability in the reasons? Would you seriously expect the parents to just say, oh well... Maybe they couldn't recover much money, and it wouldn't restore a child to health if that were the problem, but still.

For example, what if these adult leaders hired a bus company for some local tour that wasn't licensed nor proper and had bad drivers and got into an accident and some students were injured or killed? You think that never happens? Well, it has happened, I've read stories about such bus companies killing people within the past year in South America. What if a kid got sick and the chaperone ignored it and did nothing, and it was a serious illness and the kid actually died from shock or septicemia or hemorrahage, because the chaperones didn't seek medical help? What if these leaders chose hotels that were not safe or regulated, and a fire broke out and there was no proper exit, or the kids belongings got stolen or something happened to them physically? Now I think the last is not likely if you choose standard hotels, but I'm just saying I think it is unacceptable to just say that these leaders/chaperones should be able to do anything they want and the parents are never supposed to blame them for anything, or care what they do?

Christina

hmmm... error, I meant I think the US drinking age is too high at 21. I think it should be like when I was young -- 18 for low-alcohol beer, and 21 for liquor, wine, etc.

Cowboy1968

Boy, I would have never assumed that this simple question spurred such an amount of views. Professional assistance seems highly recommended.

And I do have to second Christina's "horror scenarios" for a good deal.
While accomodations and especially all vehicles get regularly checked for safety standards in the EU, the trip will not turn into a nightmare because of the long lines at the Vatican or the over-priced Coke in Venice.

For that reason, I would want any teacher or chaperone to:
a) be able to communicate in the foreign language
b) be equipped with essential phones numbers and addresses for help
c) be no novice to that area himself/herself
d) make sure that proper travel insurance incl. recovery is mandatory.

Some well-meaning chaperone (and I do NOT mean the OP here!!) who spends half the night to seperate the boys and girls at the hostel, but goes into panic and handwringing when poor Jane gets hit by a bus, or does not know who to call to get poor John's stolen Visa card canceled, will be completely useless and incompetent if things turn sour.

Chances are 99.9% that you will not need any of these skills (except knowing how to cancel a stolen credit card maybe), but being really well prepared to deal with potential desasters is what seperates a guided school trip from private travel, IMO.

rex

<< For example, what if these adult leaders hired a bus company for some local tour that wasn't licensed nor proper and had bad drivers and got into an accident and some students were injured or killed? You think that never happens? Well, it has happened, I've read stories about such bus companies killing people within the past year in South America. What if a kid got sick and the chaperone ignored it and did nothing, and it was a serious illness and the kid actually died from shock or septicemia or hemorrahage, because the chaperones didn't seek medical help? What if these leaders chose hotels that were not safe or regulated, and a fire broke out and there was no proper exit, or the kids belongings got stolen or something happened to them physically? Now I think the last is not likely if you choose standard hotels, but I'm just saying I think it is unacceptable to just say that these leaders/chaperones should be able to do anything they want and the parents are never supposed to blame them for anything, or care what they do? >>

Oh my goodness - - I hope you don't think that ANY of these possible catastrophes would provide the basis for bringing suit against a parent or chaperone engaged in such a trip.

A lawsuit would have to be based on this: did the defendant commit negligence in some way that any <b><i><u>reasonable</u></i></b> person could have foreseen the potential for harm to the defendant or his/her survivors?

None of the events that you cite as possibilities would be <b><i><u>reasonably</u></i></b> connected to the actions that virtually any responsible, <b><i><u>reasonable</u></i></b> parents would take.

It goes without saying that no adult, traveling with young people(whether under or over 18 years of age) can expect to act irresponsibly - - like getting in the vehicle of a drunk or deranged (taxi/bus/etc) driver - - or ignoring symptoms of illness for which <b><i><u>reasonable</u></i></b> people would know that medical attention is needed - - or failing to provide <b><i><u>reasonable</u></i></b> safeguards against physical harm (no turning a blind eye to &quot;running with the bulls&quot;, for example).

But the paranoia that an adult could be sued for any adverse event that would occur on a trip with young people...

...is a more prevalent distortion of reality in America - - than even those committed by the small handful of lawsuit-happy plaintiffs and their lawyers who actually seek damages from a court.

Sassafrass

Student trips are wonderful, and I hope you will not be deterred by all the warnings. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of student trips go off each year without a hitch. Just take warnings into consideration. You've received much good advice already. I'll try not to repeat it, except for this: Giving these young people a chance to travel is a great thing. Just don't try to do it on your own. Twenty years ago, yes; today, no.

I could haved planned great trips for my students and saved them money, but the liability is too great. Student travel companies charge more because of that. Students and parents sign contracts with the company, not the chaperone. However, chaperones are expected to be working during the whole trip. That is why student companies pay for their trips. One chaperone for every six to ten students is standard. Some hotels require that also. The guide provided by the company will be fluent in both English and the language of the country you are visiting.

Some experiences I personally know to be true:
Half way through one of my trips with students, one young woman started having fainting episodes. Fortunately, her Mom had come with us, so I did not have to deal with it much, but she was seen in energency rooms twice and spent the rest of the trip in bed. Had her Mom not been there, I would have been personally responsible.

None of my students gave me any problems, but a girl with another teacher on one of my group trips was carried (she was too drunk to stand or know where she was) by the Italian police into the hotel about 2:00 A.M. Luckily, she had a hotel card in her purse and no one had harmed her. Her teacher just about chained the girl to her for the rest of the trip.

Another teacher spent a whole night in Paris in an emergency room where one of his students was having his stomach pumped (pills and alcohol), not a fun experience. These things, while rare, do happen.

So, a good student company with a well planned itinerary might be your best bet. I would say Contiki is better for older/college age people, not highschool. They are great for the sights and budget, but some students use them as drinking tours. Unless, you, yourself, are under 35, you couldn't use them anyway.

Look at the companies and itineraries and see which ones give the most sightseeing with the least bus time. Choose this yourself. If you start getting input from parents and kids, someone will push for something and may end up not even going. Try to get to know each student before the trip, so they feel some loyalty to you. They will have free time on the trip and you have to trust them. I did do special things with my kids (like take them to teen discos in Venice and Florence), but had permission from parents ahead of time. If you do go ahead on your own, have at least two more chaperones who are willing to really take charge at times.

bozama

AARGG.. the point of my post once again lost since I dared to mention the miltary to an American.. . I just meant if 18 is old enough to do all the things we expect our soliders to do( go to foreign countries, possibliy in danger etc) then 18 is NOT an infant. And don't give me that most highs school seniors aren't 18, many are, and quite frankly what the heck difference is two or three months,,

I also did NOT suggest they use a tour company like Contiki, I merely pointed out that the age they take INDEPENT tourists is 18, because 18 is an ADULT in most places in the WORLD, not 21 like the States..

We are also not talking about travel to a third world county ( like many in South America where they do in fact use 30 yr old buses and fill em to the brim, LOL) but a modern country with pretty well all the same safety standards as the good old U of A..

Personally if I was OP I would be very paranoid about doing this UNLESS I used a professional agency to arrange logistics. And, I would also not allow certain kids to come, the kids who you know dam well are going to party,, and I would make darn sure at least TWO adults who come are FLUENT in the language of the country visited. It is crazy to assume anyone can deal with police or hospitals in emergencies and just happen to contact only english speakers.

StCirq

You are absolutely out of your ever-lovin' mind to even consider this unless:

You've done it before...and been a real success at it.

You know your way around wherever you're going as well or better than you know your way around your home town.

You speak the local language(s)...really well.

Trust me, I used to do this (and I didn't take on the full responsibility of being tour guide until after half a dozen trips where I was a chaperone). You cannot even begin to imagine the hundreds of things that can go wrong and how completely vulnerable and liable you will be.

I wouldn't let my high school senior go anywhere near a trip like this!