I calling to Fodors to make a large issue of DCC
Sep 21st, 2012, 09:23 AM
#21
"<i>particularly at airport ATMs </i>"
I'm not clear how this involves ATMs. We are talking about credit cards/charges, not cash withdrawals from cash machines w/ ATM cards. The foreign exchange shouldn't take effect until the debit is processed - right?
I'm not clear how this involves ATMs. We are talking about credit cards/charges, not cash withdrawals from cash machines w/ ATM cards. The foreign exchange shouldn't take effect until the debit is processed - right?
Sep 21st, 2012, 09:30 AM
#22
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janis...I haven't run into the problem but dcc has spread in many areas to atms where the victim is asked to indicate if he or she wants the withdrawal stated in terms of local currency or in his or her debit card currency at a ridiculouslyu poor rate. So if such machines existed at Heathrow, after inserting my atm or debit card to get cash, I ight be asked what currency I want to ask about and so if I say USD, it will convert to sterling at some asinine rate and modern machines can now dispense coins as well as bank notes so it might convbert say $50 to £35 and give me £35 but debit my account for $50. At least I think that's the way it works and the presence of these machines has been noted on other blogs.
Sep 21st, 2012, 09:40 AM
#23
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In Australia what typically happens is it automatically detects your home currency so say I ask to withdraw X amount in AUD, the next screen will ask something like "do you accept the exchange rate" and give an amount in USD. I then hit the no/decline button and it will continue to process the transaction in AUD. I've actually found DCC to be more prevalent at ATMs than point of sale in Australia.
Sep 21st, 2012, 09:46 AM
#24
Patty - I found one of those in Italy. it's really confusing to know whether to say no or yes - deliberately i suspect.
we'll be in Sri lanka next week so I'll look out for it, and try to remember to hit the NO button - thanks for the reminder.
we'll be in Sri lanka next week so I'll look out for it, and try to remember to hit the NO button - thanks for the reminder.
Sep 21st, 2012, 09:53 AM
#25
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I'll chime in here briefly and then will back out of the conversation, though you are all welcome to continue. I don't like DCC, but it's not a scam, as other posters here have pointed out. Nor is the 3% foreign-transaction fee most U.S. credit cards impose. It's certainly a consumer issue and one that people should talk about, but it's also a convenience that some people are willing to pay for.
I urge people to be more savvy travelers every chance I get and have written in our blog about how it's not worthwhile to do DCC if you can avoid it.
I've also written about how it's not in your best financial interest to change money at home, and travelers have repeatedly assured me of the great rates and lack of extra costs associated with getting euros from their own bank.
There's a section in each Fodor's printed guidebook warning people to avoid DCC. What more can we do?
I urge people to be more savvy travelers every chance I get and have written in our blog about how it's not worthwhile to do DCC if you can avoid it.
I've also written about how it's not in your best financial interest to change money at home, and travelers have repeatedly assured me of the great rates and lack of extra costs associated with getting euros from their own bank.
There's a section in each Fodor's printed guidebook warning people to avoid DCC. What more can we do?
Sep 21st, 2012, 10:44 AM
#28
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Doug...
Thank you. As I've said, I agree DCC is not a scam when carried out according to the rules. To some people it's worth the extra 7 or 8% they pay to know exactly how much an item costs in their currency at the point of sale but that's what you lose and you lose 3% more if you use the credit card of a bank that imposes the 3% foreign transaction fee. That, according to my math is 11%, n'est0ce pas?
However as far as I am concerned it become a scam, asd I said, when it is pulled and not disclosed before the green button is pushed on the pos terminal and then if the sucker notices it, not immediately void the transaction and do it properly. How can it then be anything but a scam? I know you want to back out but I wish you would explain to me what I'm missing if a merchant deliberately violates his or merchant's agreement with mc/visa and in the case of the eu, eu regulations?
As far as the 3% foreign transaction fee, what is it supposedly covering? Why should a transaction processed through a foreign bank incur a 3% charge? Again, there is disclosure I do agree but there isn't disclosure in the example I gave of buying Aer Lingus tickets from orbitz and discovering that just because Aer Lingus processes its mc/visa transactons through the Bank of Ireland, you're liable for a 3% fee. Where is the disclosure? Seems like a scam to me. If somebody can explain what I'm missing, being the gracious person I am, I will admit my use of the word scam is wrong. But until somebody smarter than I am can explain, I will stick to the use of the word scam.
Thank you. As I've said, I agree DCC is not a scam when carried out according to the rules. To some people it's worth the extra 7 or 8% they pay to know exactly how much an item costs in their currency at the point of sale but that's what you lose and you lose 3% more if you use the credit card of a bank that imposes the 3% foreign transaction fee. That, according to my math is 11%, n'est0ce pas?
However as far as I am concerned it become a scam, asd I said, when it is pulled and not disclosed before the green button is pushed on the pos terminal and then if the sucker notices it, not immediately void the transaction and do it properly. How can it then be anything but a scam? I know you want to back out but I wish you would explain to me what I'm missing if a merchant deliberately violates his or merchant's agreement with mc/visa and in the case of the eu, eu regulations?
As far as the 3% foreign transaction fee, what is it supposedly covering? Why should a transaction processed through a foreign bank incur a 3% charge? Again, there is disclosure I do agree but there isn't disclosure in the example I gave of buying Aer Lingus tickets from orbitz and discovering that just because Aer Lingus processes its mc/visa transactons through the Bank of Ireland, you're liable for a 3% fee. Where is the disclosure? Seems like a scam to me. If somebody can explain what I'm missing, being the gracious person I am, I will admit my use of the word scam is wrong. But until somebody smarter than I am can explain, I will stick to the use of the word scam.
Sep 21st, 2012, 10:47 AM
#29
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Doug...re-reading your response, you write "it is worthwhile not to do DCC if you can avoid it." The fact is that mc/visa and eu regulations require that you be given the opportunity to avoid dcc and as a matter of fact in the eu, I believe, the default is supposed to be local currency and the dcc scam is allowed only at the consent of the scamee.
Again, what am I missing?
Again, what am I missing?
Sep 21st, 2012, 10:56 AM
#31
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I agree that it's NOT a scam, but something savvy travelers should be aware of. I guess the term scam is used differently by different people. To me, a vendor selling bottles of water for 3 euros next to the Leaning Tower is not a scam either, even though you can buy the same water for one euro a block away. I realize that some would call that a scam, but I call it what it is -- free enterprise or "selling for what the market will bear". The same is true if a tourist doesn't realize that a service charge has been added to a restaurant bill and he pays it on his own again. That's not a scam, just a tourist who didn't know what to look for -- like the DCC. But if people are willing to spend an extra three or four or eleven percent (or in the case of the water -- 200%) for some convenience, that's their choice.
Sep 21st, 2012, 11:36 AM
#32
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Neopatrick...and it's repetitive on my part so please excuse me. There are basic rules about dcc issued by both mc/visa and the eu. The process (see I didn't use the word scam) must follow a certain protocol i.e. the payee must be informed before the transactin is written up of the option to decline dcc and pay in local currency. Period. Quite simple, right? So you say the merchant made an error and pushed the wrong button on the terminal which is all it is after the terminal says to the merchant the customer can pay in either local currency or the currency of the credit card. Okay mistakes happen so at this point not a scam. Agreed. But now I notice what's going on and ask the merchant to please void the transaction and do it properly in local currency, my right according to visa/mc and the eu, right? And the mercdhant refuses to do so saying he had no control over it (but he pushed the button on the terminal saying I had agreed to it) or that it is the same rate as the bank (when it clearly isn't) or the amount shown in my currency is just an approximation for my edification and that it will be processed in local currency by my bank (then why am I being asked to sign a statement accepting the conversion as final). At that point, if the merchant actually refuses to void the transacton and do it properly, then indeed it become a scam. How can you say otherwise? (or as in the case of a car rental company they slip in the middle of the terms and conditions a statement that the rentee accepts the conversion of the currency or when the hotel slips into the check in card a statement that the customers accepts the use of dcc) and when the customer objects is told nothing can be done. Then it become a scam.
For years, I have been trying to get banks to tell me why I am being charged a 3% foreign currency exchange fee when the bank has nothing to do with the currency exchange; it is done by mc/visa. Or why I should be charged an extra 3% just because a credit card charge is processed outside the USA even though the merchandise was bought in the USA in US dollars. Well I guess you can say it is not a scam because the foreign transactin fee is disclosed when the credit card is issued, it certainly is a rip off. Can we agree on that?
The success of dcc relies on the naivity of many tourists who think banks and merchants are there to help them. And if somebody thinks paying an extra 11% for "convenience", as long as he or she understand what is being done, that's fine and not a scam. But I don't accept the analogy with the water. If the law in Italy was that bottles of water had to be sold no more thanx% above cost even in tourist areas, then it would be a scam. Since no such regulatons exist, the merchant is free to charge what the market will bear. But a merchant using dcc has regulations he or she is supposed to follow issued by both visa/mc and the eu, don't they? Hence not only a scam but illegal!
For years, I have been trying to get banks to tell me why I am being charged a 3% foreign currency exchange fee when the bank has nothing to do with the currency exchange; it is done by mc/visa. Or why I should be charged an extra 3% just because a credit card charge is processed outside the USA even though the merchandise was bought in the USA in US dollars. Well I guess you can say it is not a scam because the foreign transactin fee is disclosed when the credit card is issued, it certainly is a rip off. Can we agree on that?
The success of dcc relies on the naivity of many tourists who think banks and merchants are there to help them. And if somebody thinks paying an extra 11% for "convenience", as long as he or she understand what is being done, that's fine and not a scam. But I don't accept the analogy with the water. If the law in Italy was that bottles of water had to be sold no more thanx% above cost even in tourist areas, then it would be a scam. Since no such regulatons exist, the merchant is free to charge what the market will bear. But a merchant using dcc has regulations he or she is supposed to follow issued by both visa/mc and the eu, don't they? Hence not only a scam but illegal!
Sep 21st, 2012, 12:16 PM
#33
neo - I've had the same 'scam" pulled on me too. I chose not to challenge it as it wasn't a large amount. i knew it was a scam as the credit card slip had been filled out in my currency before I'd been asked if I agreed, with no explanation.
I agree that the 3% charged by banks is not so much a scam as a rip off.
I agree that the 3% charged by banks is not so much a scam as a rip off.
Sep 21st, 2012, 12:17 PM
#34
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I honestly don't know how often tourists insist that they not do the DCC, but a store or hotel insists and does it anyway illegally. I would guess very rarely -- and I find it hard to imagine that it is a HUGE problem that places absolutely refuse to follow the law even when it is brought to their attention by the customer -- but if you insist. . .
"Well I guess you can say it is not a scam because the foreign transactin fee is disclosed when the credit card is issued, it certainly is a rip off. Can we agree on that?"
No, we can't agree on that. A bank is a business and must charge for something to hire all those employees, pay for their building and utilities, and all the other stuff. I don't consider it a rip off if they charge you for handling or even just "holding" your own money -- yet alone handling an oversees transaction. You may say it "doesn't cost them anything". Yes it does -- it's the cost of doing business, paying for the machines, paying for the computer programers, paying the cost of sending out the notifications, hiring the people who tell you on the phone what your balance is and explain the costs, printing the cards, and a thousand other things involved with their being in business! If you don't want to pay them their announced fee for exchanging currency (I'm using that in the loose terms), then you are free to handle all your cash yourself -- but if you want the convenience of being able to use a bank's credit card or ATM card and pay them a month later for handling your transactions without any profit for them built in -- well, that's nice work -- if you can get it. What kind of business are you in that doesn't seek ways to improve their profit margin, may I ask?
"Well I guess you can say it is not a scam because the foreign transactin fee is disclosed when the credit card is issued, it certainly is a rip off. Can we agree on that?"
No, we can't agree on that. A bank is a business and must charge for something to hire all those employees, pay for their building and utilities, and all the other stuff. I don't consider it a rip off if they charge you for handling or even just "holding" your own money -- yet alone handling an oversees transaction. You may say it "doesn't cost them anything". Yes it does -- it's the cost of doing business, paying for the machines, paying for the computer programers, paying the cost of sending out the notifications, hiring the people who tell you on the phone what your balance is and explain the costs, printing the cards, and a thousand other things involved with their being in business! If you don't want to pay them their announced fee for exchanging currency (I'm using that in the loose terms), then you are free to handle all your cash yourself -- but if you want the convenience of being able to use a bank's credit card or ATM card and pay them a month later for handling your transactions without any profit for them built in -- well, that's nice work -- if you can get it. What kind of business are you in that doesn't seek ways to improve their profit margin, may I ask?
Sep 21st, 2012, 12:21 PM
#35
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annhig, yes, but the fact that it happened to you the way you say just proves the point -- it is something for the customer to be aware of. Clearly you forgot that time or weren't aware of it or as you say, didn't care because it wasn't that much. But that isn't the same as your insisting they NOT do it, and having them go right ahead and do it anyway illegally. That would be a scam. What happened to you is not -- in my humble opinion.
Sep 21st, 2012, 12:39 PM
#37
Clearly you forgot that time or weren't aware of it or as you say, didn't care because it wasn't that much. But that isn't the same as your insisting they NOT do it, and having them go right ahead and do it anyway illegally. That would be a scam>>
the scam is the deceit - not my reaction thereto. and because they didn't ask me beforehand whether i wanted the bill in my currency, i am satisfied that it was a scam. if you choose to be more trusting or less cynical than me, that's up to you.
the scam is the deceit - not my reaction thereto. and because they didn't ask me beforehand whether i wanted the bill in my currency, i am satisfied that it was a scam. if you choose to be more trusting or less cynical than me, that's up to you.
Sep 21st, 2012, 12:49 PM
#38
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I agree with Doug, and a travel publisher shouldn't be in the business of starting campaigns against financial institutions. It's up to consumers to choose their cards appropriately or decline DCC.
I think it is a scam only when it is done without consent or a customer is told they must do it.
Banks charging 3 pct is a scam as much as a bank charging a certain fee to maintain your checking account or a certain fee if you use an ATM other their their brand.
I think it is a scam only when it is done without consent or a customer is told they must do it.
Banks charging 3 pct is a scam as much as a bank charging a certain fee to maintain your checking account or a certain fee if you use an ATM other their their brand.
Sep 21st, 2012, 01:20 PM
#39
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"the scam is the deceit - not my reaction thereto. and because they didn't ask me beforehand whether i wanted the bill in my currency, i am satisfied that it was a scam. if you choose to be more trusting or less cynical than me, that's up to you."
My guess is that the average clerk in a foreign shop has about as much knowledge of interntional banking as those clerks at local banks here who don't have a clue how it all works. They are told that if it is an American then it would be advantageous to them if their bill is charged in dollars. Many employees and even businesses believe that is true -- that's what they've been told by their bank that handles the credit card transactions. If my believing that they think they are doing you a favor by using your own currency makes me "less cynical" than you, then I'll accept that (although I ususally consider myself to be pretty darned cynical). I think I must be more trusting, because I truly do believe that they don't understand. Now if you insisted that they charge you in local currency and they refused to do so -- well, that is quite a different matter.
My guess is that the average clerk in a foreign shop has about as much knowledge of interntional banking as those clerks at local banks here who don't have a clue how it all works. They are told that if it is an American then it would be advantageous to them if their bill is charged in dollars. Many employees and even businesses believe that is true -- that's what they've been told by their bank that handles the credit card transactions. If my believing that they think they are doing you a favor by using your own currency makes me "less cynical" than you, then I'll accept that (although I ususally consider myself to be pretty darned cynical). I think I must be more trusting, because I truly do believe that they don't understand. Now if you insisted that they charge you in local currency and they refused to do so -- well, that is quite a different matter.
Sep 21st, 2012, 01:23 PM
#40
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I think neopatrick, in all due respect to your opinion, it is a larger problem than you are aware of it. Many many people do not understand what is going on. They think when a merchant suggests as a courtesy they will write the charge up in your currency, they are doing it for your benefit (Americans are particularly naive when it comes to money issues while travelling. Many arrive thinking the only currency in the world is the US dollar and we've discussed this here before and how it is my opinion and I've been slammed for it that this is a show of disrespect for the country they're visiting and it's especially true when Americans visit Canada as many Canadians here can tell you but that's another story.
I believe the whole procedure is a scam but especially when a person asks it not to be done and it's done anyway along with being lied to. That's wrong (although I will grant you that in many cases some minimum wage teenager having a part time job as a cashier might be told to press the green button on every trransaction and if somebody complains, call the manager and many don't complain).
As far as the 3% foreign transaction fee. I accept mc/visa policy of adding 1% to the interbank rate because there is a small risk of currency fluctuation. I even accept that banks can and should pass that along to the customer although sincde there are plenty of banks nnow that each that 1%, I choose to use those but th additional 2% fee on either foreign currency or more generally foreign transaction is one big rip off. Fees should have something to do with the costs to the bank not the whim of the bank. I simply want to know what I'm being charged 2% for and no bank has ever been able to tell me. Basicallythe attitude is we charge it because we feel like charging it. Obviously because a few banks do not charge the fee, even the 1%, obviously it's not a big deal and a total unnecessary charge just like the charge of $2 to somebody having the audacity to use their banking machine without an account is also a travesty....I could understand a fair charge of what it costs the bank say a dime which is probably appropriate but not $2 or more. Luckily I have ATM cdards that reimburse me for these fees although as I've said I almost never use cash for any purchase when travelling. Cash is a pain. It can get lost or I have to start to worry how much I have left and whether I have to make another visit to an ATM. £1.19 for two bottles of diet coke chery at Tesco when in London? Here's my foreign transacton annual fee free emv chipped card. Never have had it rejected...no fumbling to come up with cash. Top up my sim card for 5 quid at superdrug? No problem...here's my credit card. A cheeseburger and a diet coke at Mickey D....£1.60..no prob lem here's my credit card. (if I'm visiting California, just change the £ symbol to a $ symbol!
I don't appreciate being ripped off but I understand others might find this way of doing business objectionable. I get it.
But I don't like to be ripped off or made a fool out of especially on issues which are clearly black or white like dcc!
I believe the whole procedure is a scam but especially when a person asks it not to be done and it's done anyway along with being lied to. That's wrong (although I will grant you that in many cases some minimum wage teenager having a part time job as a cashier might be told to press the green button on every trransaction and if somebody complains, call the manager and many don't complain).
As far as the 3% foreign transaction fee. I accept mc/visa policy of adding 1% to the interbank rate because there is a small risk of currency fluctuation. I even accept that banks can and should pass that along to the customer although sincde there are plenty of banks nnow that each that 1%, I choose to use those but th additional 2% fee on either foreign currency or more generally foreign transaction is one big rip off. Fees should have something to do with the costs to the bank not the whim of the bank. I simply want to know what I'm being charged 2% for and no bank has ever been able to tell me. Basicallythe attitude is we charge it because we feel like charging it. Obviously because a few banks do not charge the fee, even the 1%, obviously it's not a big deal and a total unnecessary charge just like the charge of $2 to somebody having the audacity to use their banking machine without an account is also a travesty....I could understand a fair charge of what it costs the bank say a dime which is probably appropriate but not $2 or more. Luckily I have ATM cdards that reimburse me for these fees although as I've said I almost never use cash for any purchase when travelling. Cash is a pain. It can get lost or I have to start to worry how much I have left and whether I have to make another visit to an ATM. £1.19 for two bottles of diet coke chery at Tesco when in London? Here's my foreign transacton annual fee free emv chipped card. Never have had it rejected...no fumbling to come up with cash. Top up my sim card for 5 quid at superdrug? No problem...here's my credit card. A cheeseburger and a diet coke at Mickey D....£1.60..no prob lem here's my credit card. (if I'm visiting California, just change the £ symbol to a $ symbol!
I don't appreciate being ripped off but I understand others might find this way of doing business objectionable. I get it.
But I don't like to be ripped off or made a fool out of especially on issues which are clearly black or white like dcc!
