I am still waiting to hear a better "transliteration" for <<une>> than "yoon".
Dec 10th, 2004, 03:31 PM
#1
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I am still waiting to hear a better "transliteration" for <<une>> than "yoon".
I don't really know why Fodors shut down this thread - - http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34545411 - - but at least two "prominent" and reasonably respected veteran Fodorites decried my "phonetic spelling" of how to pronounce the French word <i><b>une</b></i>. I wrote it as "yoon".
The argument is NOT over how to pronounce "une". I know how to pronounce it, and I know how to describe what to do with your mouth to do it.
But if a non-French speaker wants a "cheat sheet" reminder of how to say "une", then I want to know - - what better pseudo-phonetic spelling could there be than "yoon"?
There is a hint of "een" or "yeen", and clearly, "oon" way misses the boat.
What better representation would a French (and American English) speaker make, that is more on target than "yoon"?
I think this can be civilly discussed.
Best wishes,
Rex
The argument is NOT over how to pronounce "une". I know how to pronounce it, and I know how to describe what to do with your mouth to do it.
But if a non-French speaker wants a "cheat sheet" reminder of how to say "une", then I want to know - - what better pseudo-phonetic spelling could there be than "yoon"?
There is a hint of "een" or "yeen", and clearly, "oon" way misses the boat.
What better representation would a French (and American English) speaker make, that is more on target than "yoon"?
I think this can be civilly discussed.
Best wishes,
Rex
Dec 10th, 2004, 03:40 PM
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Well, I do at least respect your serious reply, jlm. I even did think that maybe "ee-oon" might be better (there has been an objection to using a "y" to represent the vowel iin une).
But I go back to the notion that this is intended as a crutch for someone who has not studied French. Show
yoon
and
eewn
and
ee-oon (or even ee-yoon)
to a hundred people on the street, nd I think they will immediately know how to pronounce the first, and stumble over the other to (or three).
Moreover, record and play back whatever they say, given those three transliterations- - and I bet there will be NO correlation to what they were shown and what it sounded like when they tried to pronounce it.
But I will gladly ask for a poll - - if you have NOT studied French - - are you more comfortable knowing how to approach "yoon" or "eewn"?
But I go back to the notion that this is intended as a crutch for someone who has not studied French. Show
yoon
and
eewn
and
ee-oon (or even ee-yoon)
to a hundred people on the street, nd I think they will immediately know how to pronounce the first, and stumble over the other to (or three).
Moreover, record and play back whatever they say, given those three transliterations- - and I bet there will be NO correlation to what they were shown and what it sounded like when they tried to pronounce it.
But I will gladly ask for a poll - - if you have NOT studied French - - are you more comfortable knowing how to approach "yoon" or "eewn"?
Dec 10th, 2004, 03:42 PM
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Thinking further, maybe "ewn" ought to be a candidate also. Would it really be pronounced different than "yoon"?
Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe?
Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe?
Dec 10th, 2004, 03:48 PM
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While we're at it, I'll take any candidates others want to thrwo out for Etats Unis, also.
I would write:
Ay-tahz-yoo-nee intentionlly expressing it as if it is all one word; ay-tah-zyoo-nee looks more intimidating to non-French speakers, I submit.
I would write:
Ay-tahz-yoo-nee intentionlly expressing it as if it is all one word; ay-tah-zyoo-nee looks more intimidating to non-French speakers, I submit.
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:03 PM
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My French teacher many years ago told us to form our mouths as if saying the letter "o." Then, holding that pose, try to say "e."
But the, I'm immediately pegged as an American in France, so I guess I'm not doing it right anyway.
But the, I'm immediately pegged as an American in France, so I guess I'm not doing it right anyway.
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM
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<<Write it as you would for a cheat sheet.>>
Author: cigalechanta
Date: 12/10/2004, 07:54 pm
Message: What does that mean?
============================
You're serious, I assume...
Write it, with <b>one</b> "word", as if for a phrase book, like a Berlitz, or a Rick Steves...
Author: cigalechanta
Date: 12/10/2004, 07:54 pm
Message: What does that mean?
============================
You're serious, I assume...
Write it, with <b>one</b> "word", as if for a phrase book, like a Berlitz, or a Rick Steves...
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:21 PM
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<<I get by with <i>uhn</i> from the throat which forces you to eat the n sound.>>
This sounds like how you would try to represent "un", not "une".
This sounds like how you would try to represent "un", not "une".
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:29 PM
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Author: rex ([email protected])
Date: 12/10/2004, 07:42 pm
Message: Thinking further, maybe "ewn" ought to be a candidate also. Would it really be pronounced different than "yoon"?
Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe?"
Yes Rex, I propose there is a difference. I pronounce it "ewn" as "ew" doesn't have the "y" sound of "yoon". I have taught French for 5 years, and still studying the language after 35 years. I have never been pegged as an American in France. Instead I am always pegged as a Brit. It's amazing. I have finally decided that it is something in my deep Southern drawl that sounds more like a British brogue than most of the American accents they hear.
Now, all that said, I am still unsure of why we are discussing this. There is not enough help on a travel board for a non-French speaker. And I don't think their pronunciation of "une" is going to make or break them.
Date: 12/10/2004, 07:42 pm
Message: Thinking further, maybe "ewn" ought to be a candidate also. Would it really be pronounced different than "yoon"?
Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe?"
Yes Rex, I propose there is a difference. I pronounce it "ewn" as "ew" doesn't have the "y" sound of "yoon". I have taught French for 5 years, and still studying the language after 35 years. I have never been pegged as an American in France. Instead I am always pegged as a Brit. It's amazing. I have finally decided that it is something in my deep Southern drawl that sounds more like a British brogue than most of the American accents they hear.
Now, all that said, I am still unsure of why we are discussing this. There is not enough help on a travel board for a non-French speaker. And I don't think their pronunciation of "une" is going to make or break them.
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:03 PM
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actually "une" is easy once you have heard it said aloud. "Un" is harder to describe and harder to get right in speech, IMHO
Rex, let's hear you say (or spell phonetically) that most beautiful of sentences:
"La lune ne garde aucune rancune"
Rex, let's hear you say (or spell phonetically) that most beautiful of sentences:
"La lune ne garde aucune rancune"
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:13 PM
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"Yoo" and "ew" are diphthongs: ee-oo, but "une" contains a pure vowel, pronounced as others have suggested by rounding the lips for "o" and saying "ee". It cannot be represented in Roman orthography.
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:50 PM
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<<Now, all that said, I am still unsure of why we are discussing this.>>
Because I was lampooned, without any alternative spelling, on the aforementioned thread.
But I admit that this is all a futile exercise. Representing "une" is a piece of cake, compared to yeux. I just <i><b>do not</b></i> have a good way to represent this word in (American) "English" spelling, I don't care what letters you want to put together. Ironically, it's not that hard to explain. Start with wood (or would or should or could or good), remove the "d" sound, and substitute "y" for the first consonant. Not perfect, but reasonably close.
Now for "La lune ne garde aucune rancune"
Recognizing that this butchers its beauty (byoo-tee)...
lah lyoon nuh gard oh-kewn raw-kyoon
- - or I might substitute raw(n)-kyoon - - but I would want to explain that the (n) means that there is a "flavor" of "n", nut no actually "n sound". I would use the example "donkey" versus Don Key (which has a clear "n sound"
. "donkey" isn't really pronounced "daw-kee" - - I would represent it as "daw(n)-kee", as opposed to "Dahn Kee" (the name).
Un neuf, Inn dide... un neuf...
Because I was lampooned, without any alternative spelling, on the aforementioned thread.
But I admit that this is all a futile exercise. Representing "une" is a piece of cake, compared to yeux. I just <i><b>do not</b></i> have a good way to represent this word in (American) "English" spelling, I don't care what letters you want to put together. Ironically, it's not that hard to explain. Start with wood (or would or should or could or good), remove the "d" sound, and substitute "y" for the first consonant. Not perfect, but reasonably close.
Now for "La lune ne garde aucune rancune"
Recognizing that this butchers its beauty (byoo-tee)...
lah lyoon nuh gard oh-kewn raw-kyoon
- - or I might substitute raw(n)-kyoon - - but I would want to explain that the (n) means that there is a "flavor" of "n", nut no actually "n sound". I would use the example "donkey" versus Don Key (which has a clear "n sound"
. "donkey" isn't really pronounced "daw-kee" - - I would represent it as "daw(n)-kee", as opposed to "Dahn Kee" (the name).Un neuf, Inn dide... un neuf...
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:57 PM
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"une" does not have a y in front of it, not at all. For a non-French speaker, "oon" would be perfectly fine.
I think the English word "tune" is pretty accurate, without the "t" in front.
I think the English word "tune" is pretty accurate, without the "t" in front.
